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LED Webinar

LED Webinar  

14 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you be willing to watch?

    • Yes
      12
    • No
      2


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Sign Syndicate Webinar

I thought I would ask the question to see if their is interest for those who would like to take part in a LED Webinar about "The difference between energy efficiency and energy savings, also with the add of Fluorescent & Neon lamp discussion" which would last for about an hour to an hour and a half? Please Chime in so we can get a head count. I'm looking for an audience of at least 30 people to make this worthwhile/happen.

This would be put on by an independent researcher, technology developer, educator, publisher.

Topic

“Confused about LED energy savings claims? Is it 40% or 80%, or some other, or not at all? Find out from a thorough webinar tutorial and stay ahead of the game with your vendors, customers, and competitors.” "Fluorescent and Neon advantages when it comes to lighting, what LED engineers need to do to provide some equivalency in some regard"

Would you attend such a seminar by Nisa Khan (cost: $60)? Cast your vote

Dr. M. Nisa Khan, President – LED Lighting Technologies

Dr. Nisa Khan has over 25 years of experience in theory, design, and manufacturing in the semiconductor optic and electronic device industries. Prior to becoming President of LED Lighting Technologies, she worked at Bell Labs Research, Honeywell, JDSU, and several high-tech start-ups. She is best recognized for pioneering work on 40-Gb/s optoelectronic transmitter and receivers at AT&T/Lucent Bell Labs in Holmdel, New Jersey, which she continued at JDSU and her startup Atrium Networks. She now serves on UL-STP-8750, which develops LED safety standards for lighting products; in 2008, she served on the ISA (International Sign Association) Technical Committee and performed field experiments on LED billboards for standards and regulations. She is a regular speaker and gives seminars in LED conferences and executive summit meetings. With Wall Street experience in managing assets at American Express and independent firms, she as president of LED Lighting Technologies, now offers engineering design solutions in the lighting industry and educates the consumers about LED lighting. To that end, she has acquired a lighting background by completing IES LC-equivalent lighting courses. Dr. Khan has 9 issued US Patents in optoelectronics, 4 patents pending in LED lighting, and over 50 publications in peer-reviewed technical journals in the field of optoelectronics and fiber-optics. She has a bachelor’s degree in physics and mathematics from Macalester College, St. Paul, Minnesota, USA, and master’s and Ph.D. degrees in electrical engineering from the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, USA.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I had the privilege of having lunch with Dr. Kahn. She is most knowledgeable and also very personable. A trait not always found in unison. She would be a great presenter.

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Thought I would update this topic.

This would be a very interesting topic and a SCIENTIFIC webinar, not a PRODUCT PROMOTIONAL webinar. This Webinar would cut through all the marketing statements we see on a day to day basis and get a better understanding on LEDs


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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pretty expensive for a webinar.


GOOD things happen for a reason......

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I think this is a great idea. Would be great if she addresses also the "its fashionable element" of people moving to LED lighting and sometimes not knowing what they are looking at. Also would be great if she could discuss implications of LED lighting on power generation companies versus power or line delivery companies. Would be great if she could also include a section on potential new laws across the USA to force recycling of fluorescent and how the recycling of fluorescent uses more power than the power they save.

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I think this is a great idea. Would be great if she addresses also the "its fashionable element" of people moving to LED lighting and sometimes not knowing what they are looking at. Also would be great if she could discuss implications of LED lighting on power generation companies versus power or line delivery companies. Would be great if she could also include a section on potential new laws across the USA to force recycling of fluorescent and how the recycling of fluorescent uses more power than the power they save.

SCIENTIFIC webinar, not a PRODUCT PROMOTIONAL webinar. This Webinar would cut through all the marketing statements we see on a day to day basis and get a better understanding on LEDs


GOOD things happen for a reason......

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On the $60.00, not sure if that's high for the content. I've been to quite a few seminars where I've paid equally as much and believe me, it was a joke where I walked out with nothing

This would be the first of many to come if enough people were interested. There are a lot of other topics and discussion, but those can be used for future webs.

On recycling of lamps, I do have another individual who would be happy to speak, ESPECIALLY about the BS politics that surrounds recycling and how it goes all the way to the top. NOW that would make for an interesting guest speaker at a later time.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I think this is a great idea. Would be great if she addresses also the "its fashionable element" of people moving to LED lighting and sometimes not knowing what they are looking at. Also would be great if she could discuss implications of LED lighting on power generation companies versus power or line delivery companies. Would be great if she could also include a section on potential new laws across the USA to force recycling of fluorescent and how the recycling of fluorescent uses more power than the power they save.

SCIENTIFIC webinar, not a PRODUCT PROMOTIONAL webinar. This Webinar would cut through all the marketing statements we see on a day to day basis and get a better understanding on LEDs

And - a very smart PhD from a NY University recognized as "the leading expert" in LED technology told me 8 years ago "I have the scientific data to show that LEDs will never make it in signage" - I thought it was so funny.

So yes Sean I would love to hear it - but science has to weight the trends of the day - at the time her counterpart from RPI told me what he said above LEDs were probably 2% of the market, current estimates are now closer to 80% for channel letters. Here is his contact info: http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/education/graduateEducation/facultydetails.asp?id=26 and his science has been proven wrong several times.

And Sean I believe in Science more than most - and there are a lot of people on this message board that have been to very extensvie seminars I have put on that tap into the leading experts in the world to better understand the science.

So Sean - I agree with having her do a webinar - I will definitely be there to learn what she has to say - but as Eric says there are a lot of these seminars given where you leave with nothing.

And by the way - do you know where Gallium comes from?? One source is the inside of a coal power plant exhaust chute!!! So long live Mercury burning coal - its by product makes LED lighting!

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I think this is a great idea. Would be great if she addresses also the "its fashionable element" of people moving to LED lighting and sometimes not knowing what they are looking at. Also would be great if she could discuss implications of LED lighting on power generation companies versus power or line delivery companies. Would be great if she could also include a section on potential new laws across the USA to force recycling of fluorescent and how the recycling of fluorescent uses more power than the power they save.

SCIENTIFIC webinar, not a PRODUCT PROMOTIONAL webinar. This Webinar would cut through all the marketing statements we see on a day to day basis and get a better understanding on LEDs

And - a very smart PhD from a NY University recognized as "the leading expert" in LED technology told me 8 years ago "I have the scientific data to show that LEDs will never make it in signage" - I thought it was so funny.

So yes Sean I would love to hear it - but science has to weight the trends of the day - at the time her counterpart from RPI told me what he said above LEDs were probably 2% of the market, current estimates are now closer to 80% for channel letters. Here is his contact info: http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/education/graduateEducation/facultydetails.asp?id=26 and his science has been proven wrong several times.

And Sean I believe in Science more than most - and there are a lot of people on this message board that have been to very extensvie seminars I have put on that tap into the leading experts in the world to better understand the science.

So Sean - I agree with having her do a webinar - I will definitely be there to learn what she has to say - but as Eric says there are a lot of these seminars given where you leave with nothing.

And by the way - do you know where Gallium comes from?? One source is the inside of a coal power plant exhaust chute!!! So long live Mercury burning coal - its by product makes LED lighting!

I'm sure a lot of opinions can easily change within a year alone since technology changes so rapidly. Speaking of proving people wrong, the LED / Neon Projects we have here on the SS now are PROVING a lot of people/manufacturers wrong. Did anyone see any of that coming? If so, they weren't too honest or open about it. But here we are.

Like everything, even at the beginning of the tests. I suggest everyone keep an open mind, no matter what your beliefs/theories are.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Much like site membership, I think you'll attract more viewers (and users) with prices that are more reasonable and easier to throw away. I think $29 would probably be a good target number, but one worry I have is that Nisa will get into the type of technical talk that will go entirely over the heads of most viewers.

If she's going to talk in generalities then it won't be worth it, but if she gets into specifics about recognizable brands or products, then there's some value.

Further - if the discussion is about "efficiency vs savings" - far more important than LED power consumption is the power factor of the supplies. The higher the PF, the less it costs energy suppliers to generate and transmit the power to the end user, who pays only based on the power measured at their meter, regardless of PF%. Are the savings only to be considered by the end user, or from and entire power generation and distribution standpoint?

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Hello Forum,

I thought I would chime in. I don't post much and am not able to always keep up much with the discussions on this site. But, I was aware that in some cases, neon signs would win. Among many things contributing to this comparison, for certain size signs (channel letters and cabinet signs), neon's light distribution is more favorable at this time; further, it is a more mature technology than LED. While I am not an LED advocate, but rather solve LED design problems, I would say that LEDs, with proper design implementation can match neon's light distribution performance for many flat signs. But the key is having the right optical, electrical, and thermal designs, as well as solid-performing LED modules that only some vendors offer.

So my prediction is that over time, LED designs will improve and replace more and more neon signs. But neon may still have some applications - why? Because, well, it is neon! Perhaps more on this later.

Nisa Khan

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I think "eventually LEDs will replace neon" - now that is hilarious - absolutely amusing. I am sure that people at GE, SloanLED, Agilight, YYZ, etc - I am sure we are hopind for the day "LED Science" can be at a place where it replaces neon.

Pretty funny.

How many LED signs has Dr. Nisa Khan installed? How many times has she stood on the side of freezing cold freeway and tried to convince the execs at Ford Motor Company that they do not want LEDs and that what "they are seeing" is not really what the science is telling them.

Without advertising Eric - our product has had about a 30% degradation of light output and is still the part degrading the least. And - the power supplies have not failed like the neon transformers.

So I am ending this conversation and wishing Nisa Khan the best of luck in bringing back neon - come on folks - is this really happening?

Nichia just announced 135 LPW - and what is neon - 15 LPW?

I think we should all go back to horse and buggy - Chubby Gumpy - can I borrow your horses???

Now if you want to bring in CCFL in the discussion - then lets talk about that - and maybe Garrett can chime in.

I agree with Mark - $29.00 sounds like good price for her Webinar.

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I don't think anyone who is an LED engineer, or manufacturer has ever installed a sign besides Marko.

The same is true when it comes to them having experience with Neon, I don't think very many have touched or gauged much themselves or know how to use them in the proper application. Hell, it almost seems like 90% of the LED crowd have never seen or touched anything but their own product. Those who have, I applaud them, I think they have a bigger respect.

Nichia or anyone else, including neon manufacturers can make ALL the claims they want 15, 135, 200 LPW. Anytime I have a LED manufacturer explain to me THEIR products Lumens I chuckle, Lumens measured from where and what? Initial Lumens and LPW don't mean squat to me nor to the sign industry.

Beside whites, we should start talking Greens and Blues, no let’s not talk about those colors because we can do the same thing with our higher and lower Kelvin whites so say LED people. WRONG!!!!

Opinions are opinions, not anyone of us is on board 100% with the other. I can't say I agree 100% on what Nisa says or publishes when it comes to Fluorescent an CCFL lamps, but it doesn't mean I will stay closed minded and opinionated about my own theories or what I think to be true. I dropped all my beliefs and hard line opinions upon starting the light projects, I'm sure a lot more will change as we go into LEDs & Fluorescent cabinets and fixtures.

Believe it or not, even though I hear the same thing from just about every rep who shows me their LED products that they want to put into the light projects, I still keep an open mind as I “listen” to their pitch.

BTW, It's not "transformer(s)", it's ”a” transformer that went out. In all fairness three others are running just fine. We've also had one LED PS go out and probably two PS's kill non constant current LED modules that were recommended.

We need to get back to the subject matter and quit taking tangents, the subject for this “possible” Webinar is “The difference between energy efficiency and energy savings” on LEDs as well as Fluorescent and CCFL lamps.

I’m trying to gauge and get a head count on who is interested for a scientific viewpoint rather than a manufacturers propaganda viewpoint that we see everyday as a sign company. If your interested, please vote yes, and chime in. If not, vote no or don’t.

If we have the webinar, and you have constructive feedback (negative or positive) we’ll have a forum for that, until then I SHOULDN’T be hearing anything negative because NOTHINGS been discussed yet.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I think this is a great idea. Would be great if she addresses also the "its fashionable element" of people moving to LED lighting and sometimes not knowing what they are looking at. Also would be great if she could discuss implications of LED lighting on power generation companies versus power or line delivery companies. Would be great if she could also include a section on potential new laws across the USA to force recycling of fluorescent and how the recycling of fluorescent uses more power than the power they save.

SCIENTIFIC webinar, not a PRODUCT PROMOTIONAL webinar. This Webinar would cut through all the marketing statements we see on a day to day basis and get a better understanding on LEDs

Just what I was going to say!!!!!!


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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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far more important than LED power consumption is the power factor of the supplies. The higher the PF, the less it costs energy suppliers to generate and transmit the power to the end user, who pays only based on the power measured at their meter, regardless of PF%. Are the savings only to be considered by the end user, or from and entire power generation and distribution standpoint?

That is ridiculous!


Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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I think "eventually LEDs will replace neon" - now that is hilarious - absolutely amusing. I am sure that people at GE, SloanLED, Agilight, YYZ, etc - I am sure we are hopind for the day "LED Science" can be at a place where it replaces neon.

Pretty funny.

How many LED signs has Dr. Nisa Khan installed? How many times has she stood on the side of freezing cold freeway and tried to convince the execs at Ford Motor Company that they do not want LEDs and that what "they are seeing" is not really what the science is telling them.

Without advertising Eric - our product has had about a 30% degradation of light output and is still the part degrading the least. And - the power supplies have not failed like the neon transformers.

So I am ending this conversation and wishing Nisa Khan the best of luck in bringing back neon - come on folks - is this really happening?

Nichia just announced 135 LPW - and what is neon - 15 LPW?

I think we should all go back to horse and buggy - Chubby Gumpy - can I borrow your horses???

Now if you want to bring in CCFL in the discussion - then lets talk about that - and maybe Garrett can chime in.

I agree with Mark - $29.00 sounds like good price for her Webinar.

:wtf: Are you taking your ball and going home ?

I don't understand why you are so hell bent on snuffing out neon. Can you not concede that there are applications where neon is just a better choice or is it an all or nothing thing for you ?

Not sure I understand your view of ccfl's being different from neon , its just smaller in diameter. By the way 20mm lamps in channel letters is very doable and would most likely outlast the sign itself.

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That is ridiculous!

Care to explain what exactly is ridiculous?

As for the webinar itself, weren't the membership dues everyone has paid for these sorts of things that were going to be added after the tutorials?

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Webinars are different than membership.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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:wtf: Are you taking your ball and going home ?

I don't understand why you are so hell bent on snuffing out neon. Can you not concede that there are applications where neon is just a better choice or is it an all or nothing thing for you ?

Not sure I understand your view of ccfl's being different from neon , its just smaller in diameter. By the way 20mm lamps in channel letters is very doable and would most likely outlast the sign itself.

1. Neon is great for a ton of applications - I have said that many times. I appreciate that every technology has its optimal applications.

2. CCFL drivers - big company called Microsemi was the one who mastered the art of CCFL dimming and control - I was with the company when we acquired the other company that was making this technology. So I have a fondness for CCFL. It made me a lot of money. Sorry.

3. Fluorescent - not a fan at all

4. Halogen - i love the stuff - just lifetime sucks

5. Metal Hallide - doesnt make sense to me - I think it will go away in time

6. Incandescent - I love the stuff

7. LEDs - selective applications - but signage is major market for them.

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That is ridiculous!

Care to explain what exactly is ridiculous?

As for the webinar itself, weren't the membership dues everyone has paid for these sorts of things that were going to be added after the tutorials?

sure..your idea of involving power factors in this is ridiculous I don't know how it works up there put here we pay on metered usage.

What is the matter are you afraid that the facts won't back up some of the hype?

You LED guys always have to try and put a spin on everything. If you will read the comments on this site, a lot of sign guys are getting real tired of it.


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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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And here I thought you were going to be mellow on your birthday?

Power factor is a major consideration in both neon and led. When you try and compare power usage between neon and led - well, you will lose if you use numbers of a core/coil transformer, BUT, if you compare the two using a electronic power supply then you get really close on power usage. Right?

The reason is the mucho higher power factor of the electronic versus the core/coil. Same with a fluorescent cabinet. Compare power bills using magnetic ballasts versus the electronic ones - no comparison. And its due to the power factor of the electronic.

Power factor is important --

gn

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And here I thought you were going to be mellow on your birthday?

Power factor is a major consideration in both neon and led. When you try and compare power usage between neon and led - well, you will lose if you use numbers of a core/coil transformer, BUT, if you compare the two using a electronic power supply then you get really close on power usage. Right?

The reason is the mucho higher power factor of the electronic versus the core/coil. Same with a fluorescent cabinet. Compare power bills using magnetic ballasts versus the electronic ones - no comparison. And its due to the power factor of the electronic.

Power factor is important --

gn

BUT just compare the two using the most efficient tranny and power supply it is that simple. don't muddy the water throwing in all kinds of variables that is what I am saying. My electric utility charges me based on the metered usage not what power factor supplies I use as marko has implied.

I am trying to have a open mind about this, I use LED's on several projects and they are the much better choice in many applications so I am not anti LED by any way. I just want to see real numbers with out any HYPE or sales pitch. My feeling was what Marko suggested would do nothing but cloud the issue and I think that is just what some (not all) LED MFG want to keep up.

P.S. I don't think anyone on here is so dumb they do not know that electronic trannys use less power than a magnetic ones. So to me the power factor statement is still off base

That is a given.

Edited by chubbygumby

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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Brian - you're completely reading into things what you want to.

Power factor is important not just for LEDs, but for neon and fluorescent as well and has nothing to do with spin.

If a neon tranny is 90% PF and LED power supply only 70%, the neon would come out ahead - it works both ways. What I was saying is that PF of the power supply or tranny is something that has to be factored into any comparison if it's going to be worth going over at all.

In fact, it might be a good idea for a tutorial. Do a theoretical comparison of the following:

Assuming a 3' x 8' light box sign:

Fluorescent on standard PF

Fluorescent on high PF

Neon on standard PF

Neon on high PF

LED on non PFC

LED on PFC

And Brian - just because you pay for Watts used, that doesn't mean it's the true cost of the power being generated. The discussion is about energy savings, not electric bill savings. You want to save energy - with any lighting technology - PF is a very important part of the discussion.

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Brian - you're completely reading into things what you want to.

Power factor is important not just for LEDs, but for neon and fluorescent as well and has nothing to do with spin.

If a neon tranny is 90% PF and LED power supply only 70%, the neon would come out ahead - it works both ways. What I was saying is that PF of the power supply or tranny is something that has to be factored into any comparison if it's going to be worth going over at all.

In fact, it might be a good idea for a tutorial. Do a theoretical comparison of the following:

Assuming a 3' x 8' light box sign:

Fluorescent on standard PF

Fluorescent on high PF

Neon on standard PF

Neon on high PF

LED on non PFC

LED on PFC

And Brian - just because you pay for Watts used, that doesn't mean it's the true cost of the power being generated. The discussion is about energy savings, not electric bill savings. You want to save energy - with any lighting technology - PF is a very important part of the discussion.

Gary, YYZ, and chubbygumby:

I applaud you for carrying on a professional discussion without getting mad at one another. I think while both sides have valid points about power factor and various tutorial could be given with PF inclusion, I tend to agree with Brian. You can assume the most efficient PF for both, and concentrate on other energy savings issues for comparison based on final live-size products of interest.

Energy savings for LEDs currently mostly have to do with scaling and light distribution that are very different from neon and fluorescent lights. (It is more than just saying LED efficacy can be or will be higher.) The result is that when one looks at an illuminated sign (or a luminaire even), the effective light to our eyes (or in the case of a luminaire, light incident on an illuminated space of interest) is just more than adding lumens - which of course is meaningless unless you define where to add them.

Energy savings for LEDs also needs to consider what energy is being consumed when one makes them in a semiconductor fab factory. I can put this on the back burner a little bit for now and mainly focus on the above issue.

But, to all of your points, I would add appropriate material for PF too, just to cover enough grounds.

Cheers!

(And, Happy Birthday - Brian!)

Nisa

Edited by M. Nisa Khan

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