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Why is it that every Sign Association is filled with a bunch of "Do Nothings" who are regurgitates/throwbacks from one Sign Association after the other??? Or serving in multiple Associations at once???? They pride themselves in turning government regulation into a profitable program for themselves for all to assimilate to INSTEAD of doing what's right for the industry they represent, AND fighting it! Are they all from France??? Seriously!

Who is DUMB enough to spend money to PROVE they are green???? I thought it was just a MARKETING term to throw out at the ignorant public all to sell a good or service? NOW it really exists??? I'd like to have one DEFINE Green, what makes you Green? Compared to?

U.L.-E or U.L. - Environment, It's such a failed program where even the UL inspectors don't even want part in, or even understand it!!!. Are the ice caps melting or not? It the earth warming or cooling??? Can man shift nature???? We just discovered the scientist that claimed polar bears were dying because of man made global warming was lying the whole time, and now he's in federal custody for fraud. So what is it? Now we NEED mythical studies to study a myth??? An this our Associations cozy up too? Is this the reason why they are against the new Office of Government Ethics proposed law???? (Stay tune for this one in a separate thread)

I will never buy a UL-E product because I know I will have to pay more to do so, all costs get passed down. KNowing Green is the new communist red I will buy from their competition who doesn't use Marketing statements, (something that is executed and never explained)

The latest is California Sign Associations proud announcement of UL Green Leaf listing. Expect more since the Sign Hugger is in charge with more Marketing barrages and a stick of broccoli in mouth.

http://www.calsign.o...s/ul/index.html


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Amen brother..

In this industry you can not be 100% Green and that is what I told my UL inspector when he wanted me to carry there Green label. I asked why should I put a Green label on something that is not.

Now this came up on a LED lit product. LEDs are not 100% Green if you brake the entire process down to mfg the LED from start to finish it is not green, now Neon is green to me.. lead free glass,natural gases to pump the unit, the mecury can be recycled the glass can be recycled, the transformers use less power and produce the same and on and on. LEDs on the other hand are a bunch of man made products used to produce this componet , allot of bad chemicals that are a health hazzard and once they used up and do not work any more, you can not recycle any of the componets. That is not green to me, Plus I told him why would I put a label on something that was not true?

All he said is you have a point. the other question I threw at him was... why is 90% of this type of product made outside of the USA?..... Drum roll please..... THE EPA

he did not have the answer but I did...

And after all that I give him a cup of coffee something sweet to eat, patt him on the head, talk about something not related to this industry and say.. see next time..

Now I would not recommend you saying this to your inspector unless you are really tight with them. I can get away with it I have had same person for 22 years now.

Just another day

Chime in and try to convince me that LEDs are 100% Green from the ground up. start to finish..

Mike

NSW

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You're way off the mark here, Erik. "Do nothings"? Really? Did you wake up grouchy and want to pick at any topic you clearly don't understand? What gives you the right to stand on the outside and cast barbs at those that devote a good portion of each day to making the industry better. I've been active in our state and national sign associations for over 25 years and it's bums like you that rant on as to what's wrong but are always missing from the table when the issues are discussed in a fair and open arena (not this sandbox of a forum).

I tell you, your words and gross generalizations do nothing but drag the entire effort down, that's for sure. Next time the ISA or CSA Boards meet to discuss ALL the issues confronting the industry, I'd like to see you there. Oh wait, no, you'll be outside exclaiming how rotten the bastards are that are inside doing their best to bring credibility and stability to the industry.

Wise up.

Edited by slowdncr
  • Like 2

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Off the mark?

Just to let all know what's been happening in the last few hours behind the scenes. I've have a few association employees cancel membership or newsletter subscribes.

Unfortunate for them, BUT they will never know what it's like to work as a sign company and have freedoms taken away from them for what they can use as components. They have the luxury of never knowing what it's like to pull a sign permit (because their a assoc secretary or MFG Rep). Endure the hardships in payroll because the primary contractor isn't paying on time but they are a high and mighty association exec or chair, or member who uses the association emblem on their stationary. To be a supplier and show up to a supplier conference and see the very owner of a sign company who owes you money sit right across from you.

Where is the fight from the associations to fight the CA DOE, and CA title 24? Did I miss the strong opposition somewhere? All I see are programs being made of these, and a push to be "Green". There is no Green, it's a dead end marketing ploy that removes our freedoms as Americans, and costs us in our pocket book. A push to programs like UL-E

I've been to a few of your seminars, and it shocks me, it shocks me how the "Do Nothings" sit back and let our freedoms get taking away from us for this "Energy Efficiency" crap push down our throats.

The only fight I see is city ordinance, or for EMC's. Oh, and the unlicensed contractors watch.

Here is something I'd like to know.

Will your and ANY association every suspend a exec/chair, or member for violating the "code of ethics/conduct", whether it be for late payments (violation of contractors law) to their subs & suppliers, non payments, unfair business practices?

You're in there for 25+ years, surely you know what goes on? I don't think I need to spell somethings out.

Will associations come out and speak out in opposition to environmental / product safety movement that has plagued not only our industry by bureaucrats & government, but our country? Or just roll with it and begin new programs for all it's members to assimilate to?

Term limits?

I'm sure the golf games with the good ol boy network is fun, I'm sure seeing the same faces at these meetings is great too. Something, I choose never to be a member of an association /make friends, this is mainly because I don't want that to taint my opinion here, or have something dictate it.

Now, If I saw some opposition to enforcement to a few things I named above, I wouldn't be here wasting my time pointing these faults out. But I am here, because it's visible. I'm here discussing it because for the things I see, witness, and hear about. Then I have to interact with in on a day to day basis.

There are some good people who volunteer their time and effort with associations who genuinely want to make a difference. Then, their are those for "Ego", and "Manipulation", there seems to be a comfort, sometimes creating comfortable relationships between entities and companies that should not be. This is why I bring up term limits.

Surely you can see why even congress should have short term limits? No?

When this fight begins, I'll be 100% behind that cause, and this "bum" and "sandbox forum" won't be in opposition of that movement.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Where is the fight from the associations to fight the CA DOE, and CA title 24? Did I miss the strong opposition somewhere?

When this fight begins, I'll be 100% behind that cause, and this "bum" and "sandbox forum" won't be in opposition of that movement.

Once again, I find your lack of intelligent comprehension to be abhorrent and your furthering of misinformation to be irresponsible.

Let's take California's Title 24. Upon introduction of the original bill before the legislature, CSA was opening doors with the California Energy Commission (CEC). Their expertise, conviction and tenacity eventually won over the chief technicians in charge of drafting the regulations. The resulting regulations were directly mollified by the efforts of CSA and ISA. CSA is currently in meetings with the CEC over the next round of revisions where an ernest and honest dialogue will help to assure you and the industry that we can properly illuminate signage in the state of California. I can assure you that had CSA not been there, you would be held to 8 watts per sq. ft., no neon, no HPS or MV, just those damn LEDs you so shamelessly promote.

Yes, there are plenty of good people that give of their time selflessly and generously to make us proud of this industry we so love. That's more than I can say for you. And because you have publicly declared that you'll support the fight, I expect to see you at the next meeting of the CEC along with the other issues you falsely accuse the sign associations of avoiding. I'll look forward to seeing you there.

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Do you ever consider that you're VERY late in the game?

Why has the CSA, ISA ever developed their own light source testing of their own, like we do here? Could it be because of the Association membership makeup of manufacturers? If there was never a barrage of marketing statements made my chairmans and board members about how great "LEDs" are, and other light sources are dangerous MAYBE it would never have gotten to this point. Besides, I think LEDs are great, and we don't shamelessly promote them because we test them here with neon, and they stand on their own merit depending on the make. I bet you didn't even know I'm 95% Neon, 5% LED did you? Probably not because you only show on once in a great moon. I have had my own dialogue with SDG&E with the testing done here, they don't want a part of it they're already brain washed with what isn't.

Let's get back to "shamelessly" promoting LEDs. I think Associations have done a pretty bang up job of that and so have the trade magazines, more so in omissions to discuss the truths about light source characteristics. When you as an association that doesn't openly dispel industry myths and misnomers made in your seminars or in trade magazines that you cozy up to, there's the shame. Where is the opposition to marketing claims made my the large LED manufacturers? Well, THIS is what WE get, and this is WHERE WE are!

Yes, publicly demand and renounce all these bullshit articles to trade magazines that show LEDs are the savior and mercury based lamps are evil and bad for the planet. Because guess what, again, this started ALOOOOONG time ago. It's here now because of omissions and failure to act, PUBLICLY.

I've been saying every light source has their advantage depending on the application, BECAUSE of our testing.

But if all the bureaucrats, public, and government officials see is the marketing statements (something executed and never explained) with NO strong opposition by our leadership, then their inclined to believe it because "if it's in print....it must be true"

I don't need to be at your meeting, your already being pushed down a hill from something that happened as a failure to act to so long ago. You even have people in your association that benefit from this, or don't have a clue what they're loosing out on. You guys find the courage to openly denounce these claims, quit pushing/promoting for UL-E, push for more power plants in CA and competition and I'm behind you.

Publish, publish, publish...Publish positions and facts.

I'd like to see some of this on your next monthly newsletter, then I'll have your back. Look forward to seeing a stand, publicly.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Seems ironic that these association members would react so defensively .

How long have you been asking for someone/anyone in a leadership position to question the validity of the green marketing BS ? There's just too many creative ways to cash in on the "green scheme" to muck up the water with facts.

If any group should be frustrated and upset with the situation it's the sign component manufacturers that have been hung out to dry by the lack of support and failure of industry leadership to act on there behalf.

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Seems ironic that these association members would react so defensively .

How long have you been asking for someone/anyone in a leadership position to question the validity of the green marketing BS ? There's just too many creative ways to cash in on the "green scheme" to muck up the water with facts.

If any group should be frustrated and upset with the situation it's the sign component manufacturers that have been hung out to dry by the lack of support and failure of industry leadership to act on there behalf.

Wanted to respond but been wrapped up in work (no pun intended, I don't do wraps)

The manufacturers don't, and neon community don't like the Associations. On the surface in order to have an ear out, and place nicely there is the handshake/diplomatic relationship. If the associations think they do, their kidding themselves.

In this new CEC meeting whatever Skips talking about is nothing more than a uphill battle, the battles been lost. He can quote what his Association has done, I'm supposedly in the dark and have no idea what I'm talking about all he likes. The fact of the matter is, they dropped the ball along time ago in the CEC arena, and even bigger in the public opinion arena which IMO is much bigger never been fought AND more important.

Here's a quick summary.

In 2002, PG&E Gary Fernstorm in front of the CEC meeting on outdoor lighting went UNCONTESTED presenting a model claiming neon was 10 watts per foot, and showing an LED model that was supposedly 1.5 watts per foot. It was amazing!!!! HOLY CRAP!!!! 85% saving!!!!! First impressions always count. This set the tone, after all it was said that LEDs are getting nothing but better and first impressions count right???

In latter years around 06' or 07' brightness was an issue, lumens and efficiency were the discussion, that became short lived. These energy/utility companies already have their hearts and minds set by public & political opinion, AND they were/have been heavily lobbied my light source manufacturers (people within their own association).

2008, brightness was no longer the issue it was just pure watts, who cares about longevity, lumen maintenance & affects of ambient/compartment temps.

After 2002 it became a downhill fight with nothing more than a fruitless defensive battle strategy, slowly being pushed downhill. The Utility companies rolled out their energy rebate programs (where you and I pay and are taxed.) The mindset was, set. Yes, some small details were won, small rebel victories. Make no mistake it's not been a "association" victory by any means, and I'M not happy to accept crumbs. It took outsiders to come in late in the game (who may hold an association membership), companies whom the associations have abandoned long ago with the public opinion fight in denouncing the marketing claims for the GOOD of OUR industry. The Associations will try and say it was THEY who helped, but they can't count the help they got as "Theirs". The manufacturers and engineers did it because the ball got dropped and their very livelihoods were about to change.

The Associations and Trade Magazines have failed us, they didn't have the ethical courage to check one another. They failed to act, they omitted all in the name of money and keeping cozy relationships. Much like when government & bureaucrats cozy up with the media, this is our microcosm of it.

Later, we would have issues with mercury in Vermont. Once again, it takes the manufacturers to try and save the day for the neon & fluorescent lamp aspect of our trade. A battle lost, but the MFG's were the unsung hero's, it could have gotten much worse. Granite ISA did step in fast, but they never fought prior in the PC war.

It also wouldn't have been so bad if the general public opinion would have been prevented it in the first place. If the Trade Magazines & Associations would do what they're supposed to do, and check each other. Associations should be separate, not board members with concurrent positions across different associations IMO.

The trade magazines need to figure out to use the pair they already have, and the associations need to grow a pair to denounce/question the marketing claims made by certain manufacturers. Demand a retraction of bogus claim articles that are hurtful to our industry, run programs/seminars (they like these right?)HAVE it at their WAGs which they are fighting for right now. MOST IMPORTANTLY, i say again MOST IMPORTANTLY....do this PUBLICLY!!!!

Now, over the years, we have done all that for them, the trade magazines have allowed Magic Mouth out of Jacksonville to write articles about his magic savings of 80% or was it 85% with his LEDs, he is now a ISA board member OOOoohhhh confidence builder there HUH, wait till he be gets to play in the energy subcommittee???. He said he was going to come back to us here, in front of all his colleagues and verify his claims? Where is he? Did he get lost? The sign twirler of New England claims, what was it 90% or 95% in energy saving using LEDs over Neon. The community organizer even questioned himself got a 2nd opinion from a lighting engineer about the claims but still, published the article anyway. This builds PUBLIC OPINION! IN and OUT of our industry.

Here's a small sample of what we've done over the years. But we've done nothing "positive" for our industry, or were "jealous" people who have been alluded by grandeur or high accomplishments.

post-3-0-24332600-1323280195.jpg

post-3-0-86842000-1323280197.jpg

post-3-0-27285400-1323280200.jpg

We've done what they should have, what they don't want to do but SHOULD have done and for the sake of our industry's interests/survival.

They have had "their" club for so long, and it's a finger being waved in our faces "how dare you question us".

When CSA & ISA start to publicly denounce those article in the trade magazines, take a position in opposition to these communist "Green" regulations movement instead of promoting it, and marketing claims, (UL-E) with bureaucrats, government officials and to the public, publicly.  Be on the offensive and verbalize it publicly. I will encourage ALL to be CSA members. Because believe me, they need to support a good fight here in California which is Ground Zero whether they live in this state or not , someone who will lead, and oppose most of what gets proposed in California. Because everything that starts here, rears it's ugly heads eastward.

For them to tell me/us we are hurting "their efforts", or putting the sign industry in a "bad light" That's "laughable".

Despite Skips anger towards me, he doesn't read enough here to get MY point. I know he's a good guy, and probably one of the few who give a shit about the whole industry not just part. He has roots to go with it. I know he's angry because I'm taking a big stab at what loves, and what he's worked to hard at for years, years. I don;t think he knows what and where it has failed, I think he needs to aim that anger in the areas I just described and bring fairness in the PUBLIC Opinion. Sorry, the beast you serve is just...different now, then what it was long ago.

Just my opinion mixed in with fact


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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My goodness Eric. You just pissed off more people, and probably forced them to drop their free membership !! The shame of it!

Keep at it is all I can say. Skip really is a good guy - with good intentions. There are a few, repeat ONLY a few, of those. Sometimes the battle front changes and that gets forgotten. I get a kick out of my calls to ISA about the IMERC issues - and their complete ignorance as to the regulations that they were battling and the ramifications of what they had agreed to by acting as the association to have neon allowed. What a laugh. ISA big show by the mercury recyling folks in Orlando a few years back - another laugher. No idea how to actively manage fluorescent OR neon in a shop/installation environment area. All they knew was that it had to be "properly" discarded.

ISA agreed to the assocition thing - but I've seen NOTHING in place for ISA in terms of proper disposal across state lines, let alone inside of state lines. Sign shops deal with merc lamps every day -- and the association was given the rights to manage that national scope as an association. Haven't seen it yet. And I guarantee you that they haven't figured it out yet. But - maybe someday -----

gn

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More news of our Sign Associations supporting the Environment, Safety Product Movement AND with YOUR membership/support money. Giving them a Gold Star sponsorship, this is where it begins, get ready for more programs, marketing of guilt if you don't buy their referred products and practices, the push for products & services that can't make it on their own without a movement to push them forward. Shame on you if you don't share the mindset of saving the planet which is only achieved through groups like them.

http://www.myprintre...-as-gold-patron

Glad I don't own a printer.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Perhaps those of you who would rather post negative comments here should get involved in those associations and help to change those things that need to be addressed. Then you would really be doing something about the issues affecting our industry instead of complaining.

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Perhaps those of you who would rather post negative comments here should get involved in those associations and help to change those things that need to be addressed. Then you would really be doing something about the issues affecting our industry instead of complaining.

No thanks....I'd rather be a voice.....or help in providing a platform as there is none. Otherwise the sheep herd stays the same size....or grows larger. IMO, having a site such as this can affect those issues.....


Kirstie Gastelum

Sign Supply Sales

P: (858) 880-1400  kirstie@electricsignsupply.com

Kgirl-Sign-Supply-Sig-1.jpg

 

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Perhaps those of you who would rather post negative comments here should get involved in those associations and help to change those things that need to be addressed. Then you would really be doing something about the issues affecting our industry instead of complaining.

No thanks....I'd rather be a voice.....or help in providing a platform as there is none. Otherwise the sheep herd stays the same size....or grows larger. IMO, having a site such as this can affect those issues.....

Having a site like this allows one to be a voice to others on this site. If you really want to help, get involved. You want to provide a platform for your issues, get involved. Don't expect anything more from your associations than you are willing to put in. Perhaps they are not as active in the area of your interest, but I can assure you that they are active in many.

I work closely with both my local association as well as ISA and I can attest to the amount of work done on your behalf, regardless of whether or not you are a member.

I will, however, bring up your concerns at our next Government Relations Committee conference call.

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Having a site like this allows one to be a voice to others on this site.

If you really think that's all this site can do, you're dead wrong. How do I know this, because I hear it, and see it, and so do a lot of others behind the scenes. That's why it's disliked.

I see your a ISA Member as well as President to the Florida Association.

I have no doubt associations do things on our behalf, member or not, they also do things for themselves. Curious to know, since you work in government relations what is your opinion in associations endorsing the "Green" movement that robs not only this industry in choosing what they want to use, and where government picks the winner, but robs the average citizen as well? These "Green" endorsements over product claims are nothing more than claims, which hurt other competing manufacturers in an entire industry. You say they may not be working in our specific interests, but this is a BIG interest that affects everyone. The interest is combating a false public opinion BECAUSE of omissions and failures to act coming from our leadership.

Do you agree with these claims, and do you think sign associations should step what they fail to do and start denouncing, ask for retractions from trade magazine articles with unfounded marketing claims, as well as manufacturer claims at their conventions and seminars? I know a lot of these manufacturers that make these claims are members too which can present a problem. After all, when outsiders look to do research, they not only read our industry publications but look to associations for information as well. So when I don't see/read public statements about light source fairness, demand for retractions that hurt/kill large aspects of our trade, and as I look into the composition of these sign association board/chair members and view their public statements, read their websites to see what and how they market I don't ever see this happening, I see more of a push of their own personal/business agenda than that of the industry.

I don't want to sound like a broken record in this thread, but do you agree or disagree with what I've said throughout this thread and in others?

You say to become involved, this may not be the same form as getting involved as you do, BUT this is getting involved! This website has been doing a fabulous job of holding the feet, and praise/honor those that do good for our industry. We've seen it!

Believe me, when I see associations combat the real issues, not just the civic codes (which I praise openly) and emc's (can be more agenda filled) but the more damaging issues, I'll get involved in promoting and praising them publicly.

Here's an interesting poll I'd like for you to not only read, but take part in. This is a public poll, meaning you can view what who made what choice. It's very interesting who made what choice for whatever reason.

http://www.thesignsy...rade-magazines/

Here's something else interesting just yesterday. The owner of UKSign Boards the largest forum in the UK and probably all of Europe has chimed in support of this and everything we do. He has also relayed that they have the same issues with their trade magazines. it appears to be a widespread problem where personal / business agenda comes first, instead of the industry which they report on, and profit from.

http://www.thesignsy...-from-scotland/

We'll do more bringing this stuff out to the table than joining/taking part to an association. We can do more to assist those Board/Chairman who want to bring change, and drive and preserve our trade for generations to come, weed out expose the bad ones.

If there is ever ANY information from this site you can use as a tool be it light source information to assist you , it's open for you.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Here's an excellent example of what the "Do-Nothings" are doing for you, for the reputation of the industry, for the sign users and for the public.

Sign Structure Research

http://www.signs.org/SignIndustry/TechnicalRegulatoryResources/EngineeringandInstallation/SignStructureResearchExecutiveSummary.aspx

Wise up.

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That's great and all Skip. Fascinating structure UCSD made and project that's right above my house, I'm sure it will help and people will benefit.

But it still doesn't address ANY, or answer any of the concerns/questions. Until then, when the REAL big issues are combated publicly, the "Do Nothings" still sticks because your only combating "safe/mediocre" issues.

Have your association join us on the battleground in the public opinion, and against the trade magazines, publicly.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I guess that distills the difference in us, Erik. You see it as a battleground and I see it as an opportunity.

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Yes, your association never took/seized the opportunity and now it's a battleground for the rest of us.

Yes, there is a difference.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I am absolutely beside myself to hear about association affiliated members canceling membership here=========and then have two presidents dodge duck & weave simple questions whether they agree with the content and position of this thread and take wild tangents elsewhere? Holy smokes!===============Nice of you to have neon in your profile photo too, how ironic.

Most disturbing=========Keep up the good work Eric

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I am absolutely beside myself to hear about association affiliated members canceling membership here=========and then have two presidents dodge duck & weave simple questions whether they agree with the content and position of this thread and take wild tangents elsewhere? Holy smokes!===============Nice of you to have neon in your profile photo too, how ironic.

Most disturbing=========Keep up the good work Eric

1) Those that have discontinued their membership to this forum have expressed their freedom of choice. Would you feel welcome in a room where you were attacked and labeled as a "do-nothing"? I remain because I still believe the best way engage an uninformed man is to help inform him.

2) I have dodged nothing. I have directly engaged in the subject and content of this thread. You might refresh yourself in Erik's original attack, "Why is it that every Sign Association is filled with a bunch of "Do Nothings" who are regurgitates/throwbacks from one Sign Association after the other??? Or serving in multiple Associations at one???? They pride themselves in turning government regulation into a profitable program for themselves for all to assimilate to INSTEAD of doing what's right for the industry they represent, AND fighting it! Are they all from France??? Seriously!"

To this original subject, I have defended what I believe in. None of the examples I've referenced are "wild tangents" but are significant accomplishments from which not one volunteer has profited. Quite the opposite in fact, given the significant expenditures that were made by the asoociations. To reference these devoted individuals as "do nothings" is an affront to everything I've come to value in my many years in working with CSA and ISA.

3) As for my avatar, there is no irony. How the heck do you even arrive at that conclusion? I am 3rd generation in the sign business, the grandson of Art Nelson, founder of Nelson Neon in 1947 in Richmond, CA, and son of Bill Moore, one of the original founders of the California Electric Sign Association in 1959 and founder of his namesake company in 1974. After 34 years at Bill Moore & Associates, I am currently President and work hard everyday to maintain the tradition of customer service and quality product. I'm proud of this history and will continue to argue the positive characteristics of neon here, with my clients and the proponents of LEDs.

Skip Moore

Edited by slowdncr

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<p> </p>

<p> </p>

<p>It seems to me that you are angry because you do not feel that the associations did enough for YOUR personal interest. I think that this forum is a valuable tool, but not to bash those who are working hard to support this industry.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>We here in Florida through our support to ISA, as well as ISA are working hard on a number of issues related to "Green" building codes, fighting EPA/Government issues related to acceptable mercury levels in Neon and lighting, paint booth restrictions, crane safety, high rise sign Structural Engineering, etc., etc. We also spend a lot of time on code issues, and on EMC legislation. Those are all "real issues".</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I do not see it as our responsibility to police trade magazines for false advertising. If you think that we are disregarding that issue because our members might be making them, you are sadly mistaken. Wake up, in this information age, people have the ability to say what they want about their products. It is up to us as individuals to make the right decisions from the information we gather.</p>

<p> </p>

<p> </p>

<p>I take offense to the statement that we are advancing our own personal/business interest. Other than the paid administration of ISA, all others are strictly volunteers that offer their time and resources to better this industry. I am sorry if we cannot agree with every individual stance on issues regarding our industry, but we strive hard to isolate and administer to the needs of the industry. Calling us "Do Nothings" because your interest is not at the top of the list is both insulting and irresponsible!</p>

<p> </p>

<p> </p>

<div> </div>

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I am absolutely beside myself to hear about association affiliated members canceling membership here=========and then have two presidents dodge duck & weave simple questions whether they agree with the content and position of this thread and take wild tangents elsewhere? Holy smokes!===============Nice of you to have neon in your profile photo too, how ironic.

Most disturbing=========Keep up the good work Eric

1) Those that have discontinued their membership to this forum have expressed their freedom of choice. Would you feel welcome in a room where you were attacked and labeled as a "do-nothing"? I remain because I still believe the best way engage an uninformed man is to help inform him.

2) I have dodged nothing. I have directly engaged in the subject and content of this thread. You might refresh yourself in Erik's original attack, "Why is it that every Sign Association is filled with a bunch of "Do Nothings" who are regurgitates/throwbacks from one Sign Association after the other??? Or serving in multiple Associations at one???? They pride themselves in turning government regulation into a profitable program for themselves for all to assimilate to INSTEAD of doing what's right for the industry they represent, AND fighting it! Are they all from France??? Seriously!"

To this original subject, I have defended what I believe in. None of the examples I've referenced are "wild tangents" but are significant accomplishments from which not one volunteer has profited. Quite the opposite in fact, given the significant expenditures that were made by the asoociations. To reference these devoted individuals as "do nothings" is an affront to everything I've come to value in my many years in working with CSA and ISA.

3) As for my avatar, there is no irony. How the heck do you even arrive at that conclusion? I am 3rd generation in the sign business, the grandson of Art Nelson, founder of Nelson Neon in 1947 in Richmond, CA, and son of Bill Moore, one of the original founders of the California Electric Sign Association in 1959 and founder of his namesake company in 1974. After 34 years at Bill Moore & Associates, I am currently President and work hard everyday to maintain the tradition of customer service and quality product. I'm proud of this history and will continue to argue the positive characteristics of neon here, with my clients and the proponents of LEDs.

Skip Moore

Answered just like a politician========do you not see his rant as a reaction to everything he just listed? Regardless of your family ties to associations & neon, this association has not done one damn thing when it coms to defending it in public relations an as stated======="publicly"

PS===== For your last statement you edited out, I'm not tecnolux=======but rest assure ====Tecnolux would agree with Eric despite their membership and relations with ISA

<p> </p>

<p> </p>

<p>It seems to me that you are angry because you do not feel that the associations did enough for YOUR personal interest. I think that this forum is a valuable tool, but not to bash those who are working hard to support this industry.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>We here in Florida through our support to ISA, as well as ISA are working hard on a number of issues related to "Green" building codes, fighting EPA/Government issues related to acceptable mercury levels in Neon and lighting, paint booth restrictions, crane safety, high rise sign Structural Engineering, etc., etc. We also spend a lot of time on code issues, and on EMC legislation. Those are all "real issues".</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I do not see it as our responsibility to police trade magazines for false advertising. If you think that we are disregarding that issue because our members might be making them, you are sadly mistaken. Wake up, in this information age, people have the ability to say what they want about their products. It is up to us as individuals to make the right decisions from the information we gather.</p>

<p> </p>

<p> </p>

<p>I take offense to the statement that we are advancing our own personal/business interest. Other than the paid administration of ISA, all others are strictly volunteers that offer their time and resources to better this industry. I am sorry if we cannot agree with every individual stance on issues regarding our industry, but we strive hard to isolate and administer to the needs of the industry. Calling us "Do Nothings" because your interest is not at the top of the list is both insulting and irresponsible!</p>

<p> </p>

<p> </p>

<div> </div>

Where on God's green earth did you come from to have with such ridiculous & naive statements===== boy we're in bigger trouble than I thought.

Eric, keep it up=======and don't ever want you to become an association member.

Edited by TecnoluxMan

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Sir, ignorance is bliss!

I would respond to you, but I was taught to never enter a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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One at a time

1) Those that have discontinued their membership to this forum have expressed their freedom of choice. Would you feel welcome in a room where you were attacked and labeled as a "do-nothing"? I remain because I still believe the best way engage an uninformed man is to help inform him.

Comical, and further supports the idea of the good ol boy (clique) network, save you "holier than thou" attitude and ego. This is to do with your paragraph "3)"

2) I have dodged nothing. I have directly engaged in the subject and content of this thread. You might refresh yourself in Erik's original attack, "Why is it that every Sign Association is filled with a bunch of "Do Nothings" who are regurgitates/throwbacks from one Sign Association after the other??? Or serving in multiple Associations at one???? They pride themselves in turning government regulation into a profitable program for themselves for all to assimilate to INSTEAD of doing what's right for the industry they represent, AND fighting it! Are they all from France??? Seriously!"

Statement is never truer and stands more than ever from where I'm standing. My statements come as your association doesn't have the courage to fight this publicly. Again, will they ever? it's a question. Will you take initiative? Not individually but as an association?

To this original subject, I have defended what I believe in. None of the examples I've referenced are "wild tangents" but are significant accomplishments from which not one volunteer has profited. Quite the opposite in fact, given the significant expenditures that were made by the asoociations. To reference these devoted individuals as "do nothings" is an affront to everything I've come to value in my many years in working with CSA and ISA.

We all know the red cross "helps" people, we get that. We're asking in other areas of the "help" or lack there of.

3) As for my avatar, there is no irony. How the heck do you even arrive at that conclusion? I am 3rd generation in the sign business, the grandson of Art Nelson, founder of Nelson Neon in 1947 in Richmond, CA, and son of Bill Moore, one of the original founders of the California Electric Sign Association in 1959 and founder of his namesake company in 1974. After 34 years at Bill Moore & Associates, I am currently President and work hard everyday to maintain the tradition of customer service and quality product. I'm proud of this history and will continue to argue the positive characteristics of neon here, with my clients and the proponents of LEDs.

Skip Moore

Again, doing it here as per YOUR status quo, does nothing, remember? If the leadership stepped in so long ago, maybe YOU wouldn't have to argue positive characteristics of neon vs negative marketing put out by the proponents of LEDs with your client. The "status quo" would be a different mind set, because associations helped lead that effort, publicly and against BS articles written by trade magazines. BUT, here we are. We live in a world where trade magazines who are in bed with associations, and associations do NO wrong, have failed at nothing. It's just pure sunshine.

post-3-0-61633300-1323724602.jpg


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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