YYZ

I learned afterwards that some of the group thought I had just met the special lady there in Vegas, leading Erik to honor me with a new nickname of "Rush Hour" - lol - but I feel I should make a clarification, lest some of those in attendance think I am truly bonkers. Amy is from Toronto and she came to Las Vegas with me. I was leaning towards not attending, but talking with her Tuesday afternoon and deciding "Sure, let's go to Vegas together!" had me booking flights that evening. It was her first time there and we're both outside-the-box sort of people, so we decided to really do Vegas - which of course means a quickie wedding, right?

No idea if I'll be attending this year... recently moved to a new condo and currently moving our shop to a larger facility - all while working on some decent projects that are very involved time-wise. I just can't predict accurately enough if time will actually allow me to leave long enough to attend. It will be a last minute decision, so if I make another appearance (which would be 4th in a row?), it will be an unconfirmed surprise appearance.

What if your wife is into that sort of thing?

It looks that way because it was cut and pasted from elsewhere and the tags were included.

If it's known in advance and dimming is part of the first time install, it's not really a problem for either neon or LED - it's when it has to go in after the fact and the system simply doesnt have the wiring, space or compatible components to make it happen. That's why I think *if* this sort of regulation ever gets implemented, it's on new installs only.

I'm an east coast guy through and through, but this sounds like it's coming from someone who's never been there. Despite the negatives, the "Left Coast" has a whole lot of positives and it sure doesn't seem like Erik or any of the other Californians are pulling up roots and heading east. The pros still greatly outweigh the cons.

A little OT, but always worth repeating to help people learn about LED modules... You've probably tried adjusting the voltage usine the Axiom PSUs and noticed how other modules change in brightness. That is technically one way to dim resistor based LED modules, but the drop off happens quickly in the top range and under 8V the module probably doesn't light up at all. If you adjust voltage like this, any current regulated modules won't change in brightness until that bottom 'shelf' and then just drop off very quickly as well. This is done so that regardless of voltage drop through a chain of modules, they'll all be the exact same brightness as long as they are above a certain minimum. People don't realize it, but they could be feeding 12.5V to the beginning of a string of modules and getting only 10V at the end (or less). So not only would resistor based modules be different in their brightness, they will also degrade differently. The proper way to dim them is to use that PWM signal I mentioned earler (or other techniques) that still feed the LED its full voltage, but allow smooth dimming from 0-100%, like RGB systems or EMCs would have to in orders to mix colors properly. There are times when we use resistors only, or even nothing but LEDs at all, but the prodct will be used in one specific way only and not give the sign company or end user any ability to misuse the product. Any variables like distance, number of LEDs or modules, voltage drop, etc... would be eliminated first and only then would we build/supply non current regulated products.

Almost all constant-current LED modules are fully dimmable, as are regular resistor based modules. The thing is that you don't dim LEDs by just reducing the voltage, since they require a minimum voltage just to turn on. What is typically used is either a dimmable LED power supply, or a separate device that goes between the power supply and the LEDs... it still supplies the full voltage to the LEDS but applies a PWM (pulse width modulation) signal across the wires that - in layman's terms - makes them appear dimmer while still receiving their full voltage. It might require a re-design for some companies to make their modules forward-compatible with an industry standard dimmer device, but it's not a big thing. The problem becomes when you have multiple power supplies in the same set of letters that need to dim equally, and you need to network or tie all the PSUs to one master dimmer. It will require extra wiring between PSUs that could prove more complicated than some shops will want (or be able) to deal with - especially if the power supplies are internal to each letter. It would be too logistically difficult to force companies to retrofit these sorts of signs, to it would probably only apply to new installations... IF it ends up happening at all.

Meh. How good can the sign be if only one guy stops to read it over a 0:49 span?

Are you a permanent Chicago guy at this point Gary? I'll keep my eyes and ears open for you.

GM has paid back the loan to Canada, but the government still has the equity stake they bought. I believe it's the same in the US, where the cash bailout portion has been paid back (something like $6.8 bil?), but the gov't still owns $42 billion worth of the company. It's when they go public with a stock offering that the gov't will make this money back and the longer they wait, the greater the likelihood that the stock offering will actually generate a profit for the shareholders. I think the US gov't owns 60% and Canada 12%. As for the signs, I don't see what the issue is. Is GM supposed to act broke until they pay everything back? Who wants to buy cars from a company who acts broke? A lot of car purchases are about image, so GM has to repair theirs and this is the sort of thing that helps do it. Better it's spent on sign companies than newspaper ads, no?

A simple site like angieslist is all you need. Or like any of the lawyer review sites, escort review sites, etc... If you don't do it right with all the other stuff, it's possible that it will confuse more than clarify. Also - assuming this is for the end user to read - how are you going to prevent false complaints from competitors, etc...?

When I said "get it", I mean the way this site is comprised of posters who gather to share ideas on opinions. The way you intended to provide a place for open, honesty discussion and after people get to know each other a bit, talk in a way that those outside might perceive as a closed group or clique, which can be both an attraction or a repellent. Of course you get people telling you to keep it up - I can only say that I've talked to others who would cherry pick info from here but wouldn't dare join and post specifically because of the way things are discussed, joked about, etc... I've had people say some negative things to me about my involvement on here too, as other site supporters may admit if you ask them. Wade is not an outsider to the sign biz in any way (not what I was implying), but he is not part of the clique that is the Sign Syndicate and being on the outside, he perceives things differently. That's what I meant by "doesn't get it" and the same would apply to others that come across this site and wonder "WTF is all this"? I'm not suggesting you stop or change - you'll do with the site as you please - I'm just laying out a different viewpoint to maybe explain why things are as they are. We all rub some people in the wrong way, but almost all people are going to respond in a negative way when having a mocking nickname given to them - you and me included. I've tried to separate my opinion from the site and never used any of the advertising I paid for as a site sponsor - but being the owner of the site you're not able to separate yourself that way. Remember that when you speak as the Sign Syndicate, you somewhat speak for everyone who posts here as if your words represent a consensus, rather than being your opinion solely. When the site forms an opinion or takes on certain issues, what can happen is that 'outsiders' or those less familiar with the site, might assume or link your personal opinions with those of everyone who posts here, or of your advertisers. I didn't intend to use the term activist as a pejorative, just that not everyone who comes here want to be lumped in with the opinions of others. As for the Tea Party comments, maybe it's because I'm not American that I can see the forest a little better because the trees aren't in the way, so to speak. There's more of an "us-vs-them" mentality to any discussion or viewpoint sometimes, that it's automatically assumed if someone doesn't agree with you that they're against you, and it's really not necessary and can often cause as many problems as it solves. half the world's heuristics are out of whack IMO - though that's a whole different discussion that goes well beyond what we're discussing here. Food for thought, if nothing else. It's with positive intentions that I'm making these points, as the site has grown because it serves a niche in the industry and I would like to see it continue to grow.

I agree about first checking who the writer is. Part of the problem is that those in certain parts of the industry don't like to share their knowledge and so when you see magazines turning to certain experts with connections to manufacturers, it's as much out of necessity as it is convenient in terms of currying favor with advertisers. Perhaps the magazines don't pay enough for the content itself, but I think we could probably all agree that an article written by an industry supplier is still going to be more informative than one written by some newbie writer fresh out of college with no previous links to the industry. There may be a slant to the article, but it's not as bad as "anyone can install signs" - right? I'm not sure it's fair to attack SOT specifically as pretty much all trade magazines - in every trade there is - follow this pattern. Wade is the guy who executes the publisher's plan in terms of how the magazine is put together, but his response on LinkedIn was not worded particularly well and leaves him open to the kind of replies you've made on there. I think if you did actually talk to him in person, the approach to attacking SOT content might take a different tack and wouldn't have caused his retaliatory reply. I've been coming to this site for years and appreciate what it has to offer, but in all honesty, I come here to share with others in the industry and could do without the 'activist' slant that seems to have taken over as the theme of the site. What was first about getting clean, unfiltered info about the sign industry has become tainted not with influence of advertisers, but a 'down with the man' attitude that isn't really necessary. I think it came about organically since the site has come under question from those who themselves have been questioned here and knowing you guys, there was no doubt you'd stand up for yourselves and what you've built here, but I'm not sure you saw how this has changed the site over time. I'm not saying you need to operate exactly like the magazines do - clearly people are here because in some ways you don't - but hat is missing is the sort of code of conduct or practices that the magazines have to abide by. Having the freedom to operate differently doesn't mean you have to take a strong or opposing stance every time it's available. There are ways to lobby and call attention to things without becoming activist, so to speak. It's possible to work alongside or even against SOT an SBI for the benefit of the industry without throwing the all tea into the harbor. If you had spoken with Wade, he would better understand you and the site and would not have come to the conclusion that jealousy or attention getting envy are what make the site tick. Put yourself in the shoes of an outsider to the site - which is most of the traffic here outside of the regulars - and your perception of the site would be different. For all intents and purposes, this would be Wade's perspective too. The regulars 'get it' but I'll bet a large number of casual visitors, lurkers and industry people don't. People's concerns about the site have been made, are usually laughed off or dismissed, but isn't that exactly what Wade is getting called out on this time around?

So - with the thread title in mind - is it time to maybe change the name to Vader? You wanna be Luke, or Han Solo? Does K-Girl have a Princess Leia costume?

I saw some new products last weekend at the Canadian sign show (CONSAC), so things are changing a little, but it mostly breaks down as follows (off the top of my head): Regulated current products (aside from ours): GE, Sloan, new Agilight, some Axiom, EGL, Osram Non-regulated current products: USLED, Permlight, some Agilight, Principal, Allanson, JTLED There are lots of others out there and more than half fall into the latter group. If they're resellers of imported stuff, then 90% of is not current regulated.

Gary - keep in mind that when using solar systems and batteries, that you have to be careful which LED product you decide to use - if that's another part of your sign equation. Batteries generally run between 13.5-13.8V, so if you're using a 12VDC lighting system you have to use one that has a wider operating range and utilizes on-board current regulation. Stay away from resistor based products. It doesn't seem like much, but that extra 1.5V might have you over-driving some products by 50% or more, meaning more light right away but then more rapid depreciation.

Yeah, I don't have my copy yet. You posted the first one and mentioned later that it's not what was published in the magazine, so it would be nice to comment on the actual article and not the early draft.

Erik - since you posted the original article in PDF - it would probably make sense for you to post the actual published article in PDF also, so that people can compare what you're talking about.

The 70% requirement pretty much guarantees it will be limited in scope. It's like asking if everyone got in their car and drove at the same time, would there be room for them on the roads? It would never happen, so it's not a particularly useful question.

Erik, why don't you give them a call and just ask them? Robert Mehmet is the top guy over there and a pretty decent guy to talk to if you say that you're researching the effectiveness of solar projects with signage. Being a sign guy, he can explain the reasoning in a way that applies specifically to the industry this forum serves. You don't know if it's a one time rebate, ongoing savings or the feed-in rates that are their reason for doing this. They may or may not care about the feed-in program if they're able to save on their own energy costs and/or have saved costs in having the electrical authority expand their services, as Manuel pointed out. ... We have a questionable energy program going on here with Samsung, where the government is offering some loans and tax breaks for them to setup $7 billion worth of solar and windmill manufacturing facilities here. The front end of the deal makes sense in order to have the plants here, generating jobs and taxes and supplying a growing demand - but the back end of the deal where Samsung gets an extremely high feed-in rate for the wind or solar they generate within our own markets is going to be very expensive for consumers and businesses alike. I don't know if you guys were aware, but Ontario is the automotive manufacturing powerhouse in North America, with plants from all 3 of the big US players as well as multiple Toyota, Honda and Magna plants. These were originally incented by government to locate here also, ask TN or AL what they're doing to attract manufacturing, but they didn't lock taxpayers into buying a certain number of vehicles at fixed, inflated prices. That's what these sort of energy deals would be equivalent to.

Pride has been around some time and has already established itself among the top handful of sign companies in Canada, so the 'start' you speak has long since passed. They've got first class facilities and people, so while it's a feather in their cap for sure, it's no surprise they'd land a contract like this. It's always good to see our industry recognized in the mainstream media, though. Congrats, Brad.

It doesn't mention anything about them feeding power back into the grid at pre-set rates, so this seems to be entirely about the company itself becoming more energy efficient. Imagine being off grid and never having to pay a hydro bill. You have to think that a company with 225,000 square feet had some serious bills to pay every month. If they spent their own money to do this then nobody really has anything to say, other than hats off for not only putting you money where your mouth is but also being in a strong enough standing to invest on this kind of scale that may not have any positive impact to the bottom line for a little while. That said - it's possible (probable) that some form of tax credit, rebate or efficiency program was made us of. In that case I think the evaluation is a little more complicated, but it's still better to invest into things that actually reduce consumption at the source, rather than force people to pay more for energy that comes from 'green' sources without any change in efficiency by the user. if programs are going to invest in new technologies and 'go green' then it's far better to help healthy business reduce their demands on the grid, than to put up windmill or solar farms and then charge everyone higher rates. This accomplishes more with less.

So we had a tornado touch down a few days ago, then the earthquake, then last night this: ( Click the link above - it's the best one of all but I can't seem to embed here ) It went on for 3 or 4 hours here in southern Ontario parts of the US Midwest. It was a light show like I've never seen - seeing videos of the lightning strikes on the CN Tower alone is worth watching the vids.