The Great White Hope (Public Thread) Years 1 & 2

[Erik Sine]

PROJECT TEST YEARS 1 & 2

October 25th, 2008 - *PRESENT (See Below)

Questions or concerns? Contact Info admin@thesignsyndicate.com

Direct Link to The Great White Hope (For Board Patrons & Vendors)

http://www.thesignsy...d...rials&cat=3

If You're not a Board Patron or Board Vendor already and you want to view this comparison and other articles. CLICK HERE

This comparison & evaluation results of each individual Light source will give you an idea of what will work for your different applications as a Electric Sign Builder, you will see that not one product will work in all applications. This comparison can and will save you money in choosing the right product for your specific applications needs that way you don't have to guess or take someone's word for it, or even worse, having to settle on being sold a product from a supplier because they have a limited selection or options of products to choose from.

* Below under the products being used for this comparison you will see a asterisk *, this means that manufacturer is a non-willing participant to this non biased comparison. I have initiated and asked all major manufacturer's to participate in these comparisons, some have chosen to ignore or simply decline. I'm a firm believer that manufacturer's should be proud, and completely stand behind what they sell to you! No manufacturer should have a problem participating in this comparison. The Sign Syndicate is not owned, operated or influenced by any Vendor. I would ask all sign shops who are visited by these reps to simply ask them or invite them to be apart of this non-biased comparison, take a look and see what their reaction is, that just may well tell you who you are dealing with.

This is the first project to be placed into the Tutorial section of this board. The Tutorial section of this board is reserved for those members who choose to support this board by upgrading their free membership, to that of a "Board Patron". Also, this section is for Members who are sign component manufacturer's, suppliers, distributors, or associations and choose to become a "Board Vendor". The future of the Tutorial section will hold more projects along with Articles written by various individuals.

This Tutorial Section is our way of saying, "Thank You for supporting the website, and here's something back."

For updates, further content information and results will now be put into the Tutorial Section for this project seen here, in the Fabrication category "Great White Hope (Part I&II)

This is a Benchmark test of various white Neon & LED light sources, this is the sort of test the trade magazines & associations won't publish or report!

The Standard for this project will be a 6500 Kelvin 15mm CCFL lamp

POWER SOURCES

• All sections will be on a dedicated power source, Neon & LED
• All individual sections will have it's own dedicated P3 Kill-A-Watt Meter.

ACRYLIC FACE

• 7328 White (The Standard)
• 7328 Optix LD (comparison option in light transmission/diffusion)
• Cyro Ice (comparison option in light transmission/diffusion)
• Cyro Flex (comparison option in light transmission/diffusion)

TESTING / INFORMATION

• Initial brightness (Light Meter on the acrylic measuring fc)
• Brightness over time (Project cycles twice per day, 10 hours on, two off, operating 20 hours per day tested monthly)
• Power consumption (Watt Meter)
• Spectrometer readings
• Slot temperature readings
• Light output/Watt
• Scenario of annual costs to run a 15 Channel Letter sign of each product annually
• Light degradation

DURATION

• Never Ends, as products get introduced to the market, we'll post them up

MAJOR COMPONENT CONTRIBUTOR LIST

• ABC Sign Products (Knock Down Kits)
• Ventex Technologies (Electronic Transformers)

LED Product List (To Date)

• YYZ Systems
• Axiom
• Agilight
• GE Tetra (*Non-willing participant)
• ElectraLED Flex (*Non-willing participant)
• USLED Mega White Lightening (*Non-willing participant)
• Philips Affinium LED String
• Ventex VenBrite
• CAO LuxemBright

CCFL LIST

• Elite Lamp Technologies (13mm Triphosphor lamp)
• EGL (15mm 6500, 13mm DL71, 15mm DL71 60ma)

Cabinet 2

• Aristo
• JT LED 1.5 watt(*Non-willing participant)
• Elite Lamp Technologies
• SloanLED GW2(*Non-willing participant)
• Permlight El Plato (*Non-willing participant)
• US LED Quasar (*Non-willing participant)
• SloanLED GW3 (Non-willing participant)
• Permlight Twister Nitro (*Non-willing participant)
• Eurocom Letro-LED
• AVA Technology
• Sylvania

Vendors I'm working on for GWH Cab2/ or waiting to hear back from:

• None

The results will be posted in the tutorial section and not in the public open forum. The tutorial section is accessible by "Board Vendors & Board Patron's". All Vendors volunteering their products (LED's/Neon) will be given access in a limited form where Vendors who would like to contribute more such as power supplies will be given a year "Board Vendor" membership and all the perks that come with it.

Sample Monthly Evaluation Sheet

Teaser 1 Early Cabinet construction shot

Teaser 2 Initial start shot of cab1.

Teaser 3 Additional compartments for Cab 2

[Erik Sine]

We're going to make an adjustment here. We're going to replace the Sloan V-series with USLED's Mega White Lightening since the Sloan GW is already in and not much of a contrast between the two LED series.

I'll update the info when it comes and retake some shots.

[JR Neon]

First........HOT CHICK!!!!!

Second.......very nice tutorial you put together, awesome pics and information....... easy to follow and very informative! Props to you! Now I can't wait to see much all of this will change over time....who will change colors or go darker.

This is a must for all who have not yet had the opportunity to see, I have never seen anything like this before.

Thx again, for putting your time into it.......looking forward to more liek this!

[Erik Sine]

Thx!

We'll be adding LuxemBright LED's hopefully by next week as well.

[rocketdesigns]

Ok, I have to say that I saw the comparison setup in person just a couple of weeks ago. This thing was put together in a very scientific way, such that you can truely tell the differences between lighting source (e.g. Neon vs. LED) as well as the differences between matufacturers. Not only that, but all things being equal, you can literally see what type of power consumption each setup utilizes.

Since there is never any one particular setup that is best for all applications, I think that the value of this test even more relevant. Although I'm sure there are many people out there that think white is white, I encourage them to at least take a look at what Erik has put together. I would be interested to see some of the comparisons when printed graphics are applied to the faces. Could be valuable in a situation where you put a thermal print on clear vinyl to a sign face and you don't want it to be too washed out. Would also like to see thermal print vs. inkjet, etc. This thing could be utilized for so much, and Erik should certainly be commended for his efforts.

Guido

[TecnoluxMan]

Interesting.......how long has this being going on for, so far?

[Erik Sine]

Interesting.......how long has this being going on for, so far?

Thank You.

It started a couple of months ago, but officially turned on approx 240 hours ago.

Just an update. Thank you for the new samples guys, got them both yesterday. We will be replacing the two Sloan Lines with US LED Mega White Lightning & LuxemBright LED's

[Erik Sine]

UPDATED 11/04/08

This benchmark has just been updated by replacing the Sloan V-Series & Great White series LED's with Sign Light's, who submitted their CAO LuxemBright LED line. Also, US LED's Mega White Lightning.

All Readings are updated

[YYZ]

Great to see that you updated with the other product lines. I'm sure Sloan is a a little relieved too ;)

The readings for Agilight are the same - did you end up re-spacing those as per their spec sheet or are they still the same?

Question about the CAO - how were the modules spaced? It's weird that you get such hot lines along the long axis. They have a narrower LED than most so you usually see spots as opposed to lines, but I'm guessing there are 9 or more modules per row?

Also - when do you plan to take your next readings? 1,000 hours (~42 days)?

Edited November 5, 2008 by YYZ

[Erik Sine]

Great to see that you updated with the other product lines. I'm sure Sloan is a a little relieved too ;)

The readings for Agilight are the same - did you end up re-spacing those as per their spec sheet or are they still the same?

Question about the CAO - how were the modules spaced? It's weird that you get such hot lines along the long axis. They have a narrower LED than most so you usually see spots as opposed to lines, but I'm guessing there are 9 or more modules per row?

Also - when do you plan to take your next readings? 1,000 hours (~42 days)?

AgiLights were respaced at 2 mods per foot and reading spreadsheet reflects that.

CAO asks for 3.5 per foot so I left it at 10 per row.

I might do readings every month or bi-monthly.

[SE Sign Guy]

Great to see that you updated with the other product lines. I'm sure Sloan is a a little relieved too ;)

The readings for Agilight are the same - did you end up re-spacing those as per their spec sheet or are they still the same?

Question about the CAO - how were the modules spaced? It's weird that you get such hot lines along the long axis. They have a narrower LED than most so you usually see spots as opposed to lines, but I'm guessing there are 9 or more modules per row?

Also - when do you plan to take your next readings? 1,000 hours (~42 days)?

FYI, the 10 LED per module construction of the LuxemBright LED modules actually reduces "hot spots" and more than makes up for the minimally lower viewing angle. But I do thank you for your great concern.

I had a telephone discussion today with Erik because I felt that the modules could have been spaced slightly more to the center of the test box and that would have eliminated what appears to be a minimally dim area in the horizontal plane through the center of the test box.

In reality, very few LED products can simply be inserted in to a sign product without actually looking at the product spacing.

Erik assured me that the photo doesn't do justice to how the brightness and the the coverage appears in person.

Ultimately, when you compare the color of the LuxemBright product, the brightness and add in Erik's comments about the photo not really living up to a live view, I think it's safe to say that the LuxemBright LED products are doing more than holding their own against your product and the others being tested.

however, if no one objects, I would like to see the LuxemBright modules moved slightly to the center of the test box to where they were placed approx. 4"-5" from the center. Since there were no rules stated other than that we needed to provide a power supply and enough LED product to meet the manufacturers specifications for proper coverage of the test area, I don't see where anyone should have a problem with this.

As for the number of modules required... Feel free to visit our website, www.SignLightsInc.com to gain a greater understanding of how many LED modules are utilized on a per foot basis for the LuxemBright Standard, Economy and Mini products.

Regardless of the number of modules, it's the quality of the product, the color of the product, the brightness of the product, the energy usage of the product, the warranty of the product and the initial cost of the product that determine which LED product offers the best over all value. I think we should allow those who don't have a stake in this comparison/case study to take the results and make that decision.

Best Wishes,

SE Sign Guy

Edited November 6, 2008 by Westcoast Sign Guy
Person addressed is not on this thread

[Erik Sine]

I don't want to keep addressing the same issues and this becoming a big orgy of a pissing contest.

Here is a rule I modified for this Tutorial Project "•VENDORS involved should mention other vendors involved in this project"

If you have a questions about another manufacturers product, or how it's been used, email or PM me.

Each vendor has sent me what they would call out for a particular area to cover. I also have asked vendors if they want changes made or substitute their LED's with another to contact me to make it happen.

Tom, right now your LED's are spaced on 4" centers. I don't think anyone has a problem nor should they if you want the rows tighter together to 3" on centers, I know I don't. I can simply put the power source on the rear because on 4" centers the PS is about 1/8" from both rows of mods.

The snap shots taken are a frozen moment in time, and isn't noticed unless you really concentrate on the panel for a while. I can easily say when looking at other LED panels long and hard enough they have vertical dim areas/lines or even it can be said vertical bright spots because their mods are spaced further apart, 2 mods per foot.

In all honesty if anyone looks at anything long and hard enough they can find something. On a quick glance I didn't notice these minute imperfections of light until it was brought it to my attention. Shoot me an email and tell me what you want me to do about it.

[Travis]

Just my two cents here, I would think for this to be a good test everything should be placed per manufacturers recommendations at the beginning and that is it. If things were to be changed it should have happened before the test began. After all this is not a manufacturers test it is a private test. I dont think things should be allowed to change after the beginning because a manufacturer doesnt like how their product looks next to another. This is a test to show 'per manufacturers recommendations' now and down the road. Am I right?

[SE Sign Guy]

Just my two cents here, I would think for this to be a good test everything should be placed per manufacturers recommendations at the beginning and that is it. If things were to be changed it should have happened before the test began. After all this is not a manufacturers test it is a private test. I dont think things should be allowed to change after the beginning because a manufacturer doesnt like how their product looks next to another. This is a test to show 'per manufacturers recommendations' now and down the road. Am I right?

Travis,

I don't disagree with your point. However, the manufacturers guidelines for this application does state that the modules should be placed no closer than 2" to the sidewall. If we are there, then I will accept that with no more comment on the module placement.

But, in a real-life product application where a sign was actually going to be installed for public viewing, it's not unusual to have to spend a minute or two adjusting the module placement for ultimate brightness and coverage.

In the end, this is Erik's rodeo and I am happy to move forward as he sees fit. I'm just pleased for the opportunity to participate, gain knowledge and meet new sign and LED product junkies.

SE Sign Guy

[YYZ]

I don't care one way or another if the modules need to be re-spaced. It will probably only change by 3/4" of an inch and the effect seen in the photos will still be there no matter what you do.

It's partly to do with the narrower beam of your LEDs, but more an issue of photography than the actual placement. Almost all of the LED sections in the photos show some sort of spotting which is accentuated by the settings Erik has to use to actually take a photo. In real life, I would imagine the whole display is much more of a glowing white blob than what we are seeing in the pics.

He would have to light them one by one and take individual photos to get a more "drive by a sign at night" feel from each of the sections.

It's up to Erik, really.

[YYZ]

Erik - one thing you might consider is taking measurements at 1000 hours (41.6 days), and then possibly in increments of 1000 hours. This might help make some more accurate projections for life expectancy, etc...

Also - what is the Great White Hope 3 about?

[geo_ROAL]

Hello West Coast Sign Guy,

A very interesting project!

Amazing to see side by side comparisons of the actual color differences!

I was wondering if the actual power supplies made any difference in color, output (brightness) or longevity.

Would you be interested in getting involved in another similar test omitting the different power supplies and using our SignLINQ power solution? Let me know, I would like to see if the power supplies make a difference. I wonder?

I figure the same set up you have, but getting power from one remote source with our MultiLINQ and the Remote Power Supply (RPS).

One SignLINQ would power all.

1 MultiLINQ will split into 4 outputs, so if we go with 12 light boxes as you have pictured, 3 MultiLINQ and one RPS will run the whole set up.

We will be powering our whole booth at the sign show in Atlantic City, NJ this December.

Let me know what you think.

Best Regards,

George

Edited November 25, 2008 by Westcoast Sign Guy

[Erik Sine]

Not sure how your components work, but I have varying voltage from 12v to 44v, class I & II pending on each slot. I'll have to check out your products when I get some free time.

[geo_ROAL]

Not sure how your components work, but I have varying voltage from 12v to 44v, class I & II pending on each slot. I'll have to check out your products when I get some free time.

Well....hmmmmm. I guess the project / test would have to be for LED only. Maybe you have some thoughts on this. I am thinking not so much as to see which is better or worse, but to make sure any of the results of your current test were not the result of the power supply being different / inferior /defective, etc.

But only for the LED slots that are 12 volt. Seems to still have some merit....what do you think?

Geo

[Erik Sine]

The new numbers are up, and there have been some interesting changes in both the Neon & LED sections of the project. We have now added compartment temperature to the project.

Later down the road as stated in the Tutorial, we will blast both cold & warm air into the compartments in a controlled fashion, those results will show what temperature can play in lighting.

[JR Neon]

Holy smokes on some of that deterioration Good stuff sign guy!

[SE Sign Guy]

The new numbers are up, and there have been some interesting changes in both the Neon & LED sections of the project. We have now added compartment temperature to the project.

Later down the road as stated in the Tutorial, we will blast both cold & warm air into the compartments in a controlled fashion, those results will show what temperature can play in lighting.

Erik,

I realize everybody wants YOU to spend more time doing more things with this test/tutorial. But, I'd like to see a Salt Mist test done, at least on the LED products. There's a significant portion of the country, and the world for that matter, that deals with salt air. Many products are failing miserably, quickly, in these areas.

I am not 100% sure how such a test is performed but perhaps between, Manuel, YYZ and myself (I will check with CAO Group to see how they have performed such testing in the past.), we can find what the standards are.

If we are really going to find out what the best over all products are, then this is a reasonable test to add to the mix, don't you think?

Thanks again for all of your time and effort on this. You are much appreciated by the folks at Kendal Signs and Sign Lights, Inc.

SE Sign Guy

[Erik Sine]

Salt water would make it interesting. Not sure if it would make a difference on the CCFL part, I think the only deterioration you would get is if the sun was involved to help the salt eat away at the GTO. I did voice in the first GWH thread adding moisture sticks in each compartment, closing it up and wrapping the cabinet with a huge roll of pallet wrap and let it sit outside exposed to the sun on.

I would however soon like to look into different day night lens scenerio's, by acrylic & film for comparisonof different manufacturer's. Maybe even throw in different whites, colors as well. Do other tests while doing a test. I think I will start to get a hold of a few substrate & vinyl manufacturer's.

Why not test different colors too? It might be nice to know what colors might work with certain white lights than others, digital prints too.

Any thoughts?

[SE Sign Guy]

Salt water would make it interesting. Not sure if it would make a difference on the CCFL part, I think the only deterioration you would get is if the sun was involved to help the salt eat away at the GTO. I did voice in the first GWH thread adding moisture sticks in each compartment, closing it up and wrapping the cabinet with a huge roll of pallet wrap and let it sit outside exposed to the sun on.

I would however soon like to look into different day night lens scenerio's, by acrylic & film for comparisonof different manufacturer's. Maybe even throw in different whites, colors as well. Do other tests while doing a test. I think I will start to get a hold of a few substrate & vinyl manufacturer's.

Why not test different colors too? It might be nice to know what colors might work with certain white lights than others, digital prints too.

Any thoughts?

There are so many things that can be done with this. I do think the salt water test is important. Since we are comparing LED, Neon and CCFL each product is going to have certain parts of the testing that is does well in and potentially doesn't do so well in. But, isn't this how we find the best product over all?

You being in San Diego and me being in Florida, we likely have a better appreciation for what salt air does to some LED products, neon and CCFL. Other's who don't work in area with salt air or high levels of humidity may no relate as well to that. However, we have a huge portion of the US that deals with salt air and/or high humidity levels so I think it's quite relevant.

I also think at some point we should get a measurement of the product utilized in each test compartment and figure what the initial cost for each product is based upon a per module and per foot price. I think you would have to go to say 3 distributors of each product and average out the cost to come up with fair cost analysis.

Most companies that I know who are utilizing these products care about brightness, reliability and price. Not sure that others think about that but it most of the other manufacturers/distributors involved in this testing agree, then it seems to me like these two things should be next in line?

Again, thanks to you Erik and to all invlolved. This is a really great thing you are doing.

SE Sign Guy

[manuellynch]

About 5-6 years ago a bunch of companies were subjected to a serious of various rigorous environmental tests to compare products and what ultimately came out is the following:

1. Most of the salt spray, resistance to thrown objects, vibration testing was really a factor of the quality of the sign made and not the LED, neon or fluorescent.

2. The most meaningful test were those conducted at various temperatures as this is what (as Erik has found) is what most affected light output and lifetime - or items that were a direct performance indicator of the LED, Neon, Fluorescent, etc.

The tests also found that for instance in the UK most sign companies use two (2) weep holes on their signs, in the USA almost all only used one (1). The test also found that more Salt/Spray and Corrosion Failures would happen on open face reverse halo signs for LEDs because due to code issues sign companies were able to eliminate the lexan backing (however it was also found that bird crap and nests were a bigger issue).

What was most interesting was when one of the GE/Gelcore modules that apparently had no corrosion was cross-sectioned - it had corrosion all over the place underneath the plastic housing - was very interesting.

While San Diego and Florida are tougher environments India is the earth's hell hole for high temperature and humidity...and even there our customers have consistently said that lifetime of any light source has largely to do with the construction of the sign.

I agree that a price point for each module should be shown for this project - as I told you SE Sign Guy - this is where we really win and I think it would be a great thing to add.

On different colors and day/nite, etc Erik - I think that would be a complete other tutorial that addresses items such as Color Rendering Index, etc. I think you could go on for 1000's of pages on this subject....you must remember to also add light enhancing films and new types of acrylics.

And lastly - dont you think a survey that discusses the "actual" useful life of a sign before it is changed would be incredibly great resource to technical people in the sign industry? With every Washington Mutual being changed, Car companies going under and merging with other companies, and retailers coming in and going out of business I heard recently that the "lifetime" of a current sign averages about 5-6 years now!!!

And one more thing - Erik - I think you should offer a summary snapshot of your tutorial for sale to end customers like retailers, etc for them to purchase the report for $X. That way they could look in during their attempt to select a system for their national conversion to see if they are making the right decision.