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Posted

Project Major Contributors:

regal.jpgRoalLogo_little.gif

July 2009 - UPDATED Current

TW-Project-Flashbanner.gif

THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED, JOIN US AT THE YEAR 3 & 4 THREAD LINK

Questions or concerns? A Vendor wanting to participate? Contact Info admin@thesignsyndicate.com

Direct Link to Project Tighty Whitey (For Board Patrons & Vendors)

http://www.thesignsy...d...s&article=6

If You're not a Board Patron or Board Vendor already and you want to view this comparison and other articles. CLICK HERE

This comparison & evaluation results of each individual Light source will give you an idea of what will work for your different applications as a Electric Sign Builder, you will see that not one product will work in all applications. This comparison can and will save you money in choosing the right product for your specific applications needs that way you don't have to guess or take someone's word for it, or even worse, having to settle on being sold a product from a supplier because they have a limited selection or options of products to choose from.

* Below under the products being used for this comparison you will see a asterisk *, this means that manufacturer is a non-willing participant to this non biased comparison. I have initiated and asked all major manufacturer's to participate in these comparisons, some have chosen to ignore or simply decline. I'm a firm believer that manufacturer's should be proud, and completely stand behind what they sell to you! No manufacturer should have a problem participating in this comparison. The Sign Syndicate is not owned, operated or influenced by any Vendor. I would ask all sign shops who are visited by these reps to simply ask them or invite them to be apart of this non-biased comparison, take a look and see what their reaction is, that just may well tell you who you are dealing with.

This is the Second comparison project to be placed into the Tutorial section of this board. The Tutorial section of this board is reserved for those members who choose to support this board by upgrading their free membership, to that of a "Board Patron". Also, this section is for Members who are sign component manufacturer's, suppliers, distributors, or associations and choose to become a "Board Vendor". The future of the Tutorial section will hold more projects along with Articles written by various individuals.

This Tutorial Section is our way of saying, "Thank You for supporting the website, and here's something back."

For updates, further content information and results will now be put into the Tutorial Section for this project seen here, in the Fabrication category "Project Tighty Whitey"

This is a Benchmark test of various white LED light sources, this is the sort of test the trade magazines & associations won't publish or report!

The Standard for this project will be 6500 Kelvin

What are we testing? Well similar to the The Great White hope,

  • Initial Brightness
  • Power Consumption
  • Light Depreciation

Regal Piedmont Plastics has been kind enough to contribute the acrylics for this project. Here is the acrylic line up we will be using for this project:

  • Optix LD 7238
  • Optix LD 2447
  • Cyro Complete LED Line
  • Plexiglas Frost White?

DIMENSIONS

3" & 5" Depth returns. 1.625" x 23.5". LED's .80 watts per module and smaller

POWER SOURCE

All power sources other than 12v will have their own dedicated power supply. All power for this project will be supplied by ROAL Living Energy "SignLinQ".

SignLINQ is a revolutionary LED lighting power management solution that eliminates the need for multiple small class 2 power supplies in LED lighted signs. It consists of a high efficiency, long life dc power splitter for the sign, and a remotely located central power source.

SignLINQ offers a better solution than the traditional Single output Class 2 Power supplies routine by providing a safe, scalable, and reliable means of supplying the necessary class 2 power to the LED's.

Through the advent of the MultiLINQ Power Splitter, a large sign may be fed with DC power from a remote power source and still comply with the safety criteria for UL48. The weatherproof MultiLINQ Power Splitter is a better suited to be placed within the sign because it provides the core benefit of Class 2 power, but

• does not generate heat

• is smaller than class 2 power supplies

• is lighter than class 2 power supplies

• costs than class 2 power supplies

• is more reliable than class 2 power supplies (>98% efficient)

• Does not require a service disconnect switch within 9m of it's input

SignLINQ eliminates power supplies in the sign, eliminates AC wiring in the sign, and

provides a means for easy power supply replacement. This reduces up front costs, reduces maintenance costs, and provides years of worry free operation.

signlinq.jpg

Sample Monthly Evaluation Sheet

sample%20ptw.jpg

Early Project Teaser Pic

PTW%20Teas%200211.jpg

Light Source Products: (.80 watts per module and below)

  • YYZ - Easy Stroke & Mini Stroke
  • CAO - Luxembright Mini & Luxembright Economy (*Non-responsive)
  • Axiom
  • Ventex - Venbrite (*Non-responsive)
  • JT LED -.3 watt & .4watt (*Non Willing Participant)
  • US LED - The Point (*Non Willing Participant)
  • Transco Color Flex, Aqua
  • Sloan V-Series (*Non Willing Participant)
  • Sloan ChanneLED5 (*Non Willing Participant)
  • Allanson - Storm Tight
  • etecdisplay - Ice & Everbright
  • GE MiniMax (*Non Willing Participant)
  • Permlight - Twister Star (*Non Willing Participant)
  • AgiLight - ThinRayz (*Non Willing Participant)
  • Eurocom - Letro-LED
  • AA LED - Blazer HD
  • AVA Technology - 12-B3
  • GE Tetra Max, Mini Max, NB1000
  • JS LED - (*Non Willing Participant)
  • Principal LED - Optima(*Non Willing Participant)

Vendors I'm working on / waiting to hear back from:

  • TFT
  • More TBA

If anyone can think of other manufacturer's please let me know.

There is no predetermined number of slots yet for this project, I was anticipating anywhere from 15-25. Any manufacturer or supplier who would like to participate in this project please contact me. admin@thesignsyndicate.com I'll be doing my best to contact as many manufacturer's as I can.

  • Like 2

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Posted

In looking at some of the modules I have had and some of the newer advertised modules I'm seeing more .6 (V-series) to .85 watts per module and not too many lower wattage being used as "mini's" . Maybe we'll have to raise the bar on 1/2 watt mods? Any thoughts? As we have all seen from the GWH project we've seen modules that are brighter than others and only 1/4% of the power consumption. In the GWH project we have modules spaced to spec going at about 3 to 3.8 watts per foot.

Here are a few manufacturer's brief specs.

LuxemBright Mini .15watt per mod @ 3/foot (.45 watts)

USLED TadPole .36watts per mod @ 4/foot (1.44 watts)

Permilight Twisters .40 watts per foot @ 3/foot (1.2watts)

Axiom LE1 .5 watts per foot @ 3/foot (1.5 watts)

Sloan V-series .6 per mod @ 3/foot (1.8 watts)

Allanson Twin White .84 watts per mod @ 2/foot (1.68)

GE TetraMiniMax .749 watts per mod 2.5/foot (1.87 watts)

I'm thinking we should cap it off at .85 per mod and have a broader project. If that is not the case, we will probably end up having a much smaller project

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Posted

YYZ MiniStroke = 0.24 watt per mod @ 4/foot (0.96 watts). You can get away with 3/foot, but we recommend 4.

One thing you can try, is building the cabinet with 2 depths. Go 5" deep on one half and 2.5" deep on the other. There's a little extra material cutting, but woudl kill 2 birds with one stone as far as the test goes.

Posted (edited)
In looking at some of the modules I have had and some of the newer advertised modules I'm seeing more .6 (V-series) to .85 watts per module and not too many lower wattage being used as "mini's" . Maybe we'll have to raise the bar on 1/2 watt mods? Any thoughts? As we have all seen from the GWH project we've seen modules that are brighter than others and only 1/4% of the power consumption. In the GWH project we have modules spaced to spec going at about 3 to 3.8 watts per foot.

Here are a few manufacturer's brief specs.

LuxemBright Mini .15watt per mod @ 3/foot (.45 watts)

USLED TadPole .36watts per mod @ 4/foot (1.44 watts)

Permilight Twisters .40 watts per foot @ 3/foot (1.2watts)

Axiom LE1 .5 watts per foot @ 3/foot (1.5 watts)

Sloan V-series .6 per mod @ 3/foot (1.8 watts)

Allanson Twin White .84 watts per mod @ 2/foot (1.68)

GE TetraMiniMax .749 watts per mod 2.5/foot (1.87 watts)

I'm thinking we should cap it off at .85 per mod and have a broader project. If that is not the case, we will probably end up having a much smaller project

- I personally think that we should cap it at .5W per module.

- The return depth should be somewhere between 2" and 4". (3" probably resembles a more common depth of a typical reverse channel letter.)

*Mini products are typically used in applications where standard sized products will either not physically fit, or when you have a short return and standard brightness will cause hot spots.

- I also think that unless the product can only be purchased from the manufacturer that we should really try to have product supplied by a distributor and not the manufacturer.

Other than that, I just need to know when you want product and the size of the test area so I can send enough product to meet manufacturers installation specifications.

Thanks,

SE Sign Guy

Sign Lights, Inc.

Edited by SE Sign Guy
Posted
(3" probably resembles a more common depth of a typical reverse channel letter.)

...except this isn't a reverse letter project. This was clarified to you last time around, but I agree with you that Erik needs to clarify what the power/size limit is if this is a genuine "mini module" comparison. Our medium sized module is 0.6W and could fit into this test, but is not what we would consider a "mini" application, where typical modules can't fit. This would describe the Sloan V-Series also. I guess Erik wants to use it because it was purchased last time, but was completely inadequate for the first GW project.

I think the "White Short" is the equivalent Sloan product to the Tadpole, etc...

Posted
...except this isn't a reverse letter project. This was clarified to you last time around, but I agree with you that Erik needs to clarify what the power/size limit is if this is a genuine "mini module" comparison. Our medium sized module is 0.6W and could fit into this test, but is not what we would consider a "mini" application, where typical modules can't fit. This would describe the Sloan V-Series also. I guess Erik wants to use it because it was purchased last time, but was completely inadequate for the first GW project.

I think the "White Short" is the equivalent Sloan product to the Tadpole, etc...

YYZ, Actually, I think I clarified to you that this wasn't a Reverse Channel letter project.

My point was that if we are going to test the mini modules they should probably be tested in a manner that's similar to typcial sign applications.

If we are going to do anything with a 5" return then typically a Mini product is not going to be needed nor the best fit for the job.

Why test a product in an application that it would rarely, if ever be utilized in.

Thanks

SE Sign Guy

Sign Lights, Inc.

Posted

I was thinking about doing a telescoping cabinet that I could adjust but I think I like the idea of making two different sections of a cabinet or making a channel letter using two different returns of 3" & 5".

Back to the modules, I don't think there are a lot of vendors manufacturing mods under 1/2 watt, the list seems small, and the project would be smaller. Maybe use mid sized, or both.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Posted

Yeah - it depends on how you want to build your box and how thorough the test is going to be. Hell, you could do mini and medium sized all in one shot if you really wanted to. Have a 1" stroke next to a 3" stroke, giving 4" to each vendor. Depth is an issue but if you're contemplating having 2 depths then it isn't so bad.

I know the drawing is very simple, but something like this... (repeated for however many vendors are included)

post-698-1234393531.jpg

Posted
Yeah - it depends on how you want to build your box and how thorough the test is going to be. Hell, you could do mini and medium sized all in one shot if you really wanted to. Have a 1" stroke next to a 3" stroke, giving 4" to each vendor. Depth is an issue but if you're contemplating having 2 depths then it isn't so bad.

I know the drawing is very simple, but something like this... (repeated for however many vendors are included)

LOL, that's the same vision I had stuck in my head too.

If we're going to get into a 3" stroke then I might as well be inviting CCFL too, and I don't want to for this one. I want it to be an application that isn't possible for neon, and ideal LED environment.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Posted

"Ideal for LEDs" is tiny letters - so forget the 3" stroke and just do the 1" or 1.5" wide, and at 2different depths. Some shops will do 5" just because that is the size of return coil they stock, but as SignLights and I have both previously mentioned, showing the spacing and capability within really thin/shallow letters will be just as valuable as the actual brightness comparison. Anyone viewing the results would get a better idea which product might work better for which application.

A cabinet with straight lines is easier, but imagine you had an "S" that had a 1" stroke and was 9" tall. The longer, more rectangular modules like V-Series wouldn't work because they won't fit in along the curve.

Posted
"Ideal for LEDs" is tiny letters - so forget the 3" stroke and just do the 1" or 1.5" wide, and at 2different depths. Some shops will do 5" just because that is the size of return coil they stock, but as SignLights and I have both previously mentioned, showing the spacing and capability within really thin/shallow letters will be just as valuable as the actual brightness comparison. Anyone viewing the results would get a better idea which product might work better for which application.

A cabinet with straight lines is easier, but imagine you had an "S" that had a 1" stroke and was 9" tall. The longer, more rectangular modules like V-Series wouldn't work because they won't fit in along the curve.

YYZ,

Yes, you are going in the same direction that I was thinking about last night. Perhaps the "MINI" testing shouldn't have the products allowed in be based upon the Watts per module.

Since the point of "MINI" is the physical size of the module, then perhaps the physical dimensions of the modules would be a better concept of what defines "MINI" for this test.

Typically someone turns to a "Mini" product when their favorite standard product won't physically fit in to the application or when they actually need a reduced brightness because the light source must be uncommonly close to a sign or letter face. (There may be other reasons and I am open to hearing about those reasons.)

Standard and Economy LuxemBright modules are rated at 0.8W per module (for white) and are 2 1/4"(L)x1 1/4"(W)x 5/8"(H) in size. Compared to some products this is much smaller in over all size. So, does the power draw and size of this product qualify it as a "Mini"?

If we aren't going to use the physical dimension of the LED modules as a guideline then I think we need to define the specifications of the test module and simply tell each product supplier to provide the product that they feel fits the application most appropriately. So, if it fits... It's in. If you go this route then let's just take the "Mini" concept out of the mix and call it GWH Test B.

Curious to know what other think about these thoughts and ideas...

Thanks,

SE Sign Guy

Sign Lights, Inc.

Posted

I agree, there are only a hand full of .5watt LED's out there, so how about using what is recommended by the manufacture for a given application. If it is a higher wattage, it will give hot spots in a shallow letter or box that are not acceptable.

Gemini has a formed letter just for LED's we have used with a depth of 2.75in. so why not start with that depth?? V-series does a good job with no hot spots, not that I'm promoting Sloan, especially after following this study.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not to find the best LED's for all of us to use in the manufacturing of our products? If I'm correct, we need to put the burden on the manufactures of the LED's so we do not have the mess we had when the switch was made to 2161 transformers for neon. I do beleive any of you out there that dealt with this know what I'm talking about..!! A study like this with LED's should have been done with 2161's..!

Again, I would like to Thank all of you that are working on this project and the vendors that donated their products, this was over due.

Posted

Well said Bill.

I think what we need to do is again put this project in the eyes of a sign builder. Instead of trying to build a project around a light source, let's build a project and see what will fit and of course apply. Again, just like the GWH, this project will ask more questions than answer, leaving it entirely up to the builder to pick what light source will best fit their application.

I have built some demo letters that are 12" tall and a return of 5". I have mini mods .5watts and less to mods that are 1.8 watts each. The light being housed in such a small environment, you would think that the letter was being illuminated with Tri & RE Phosphor lamps. This is the perfect application for LED's in my opinion.

So what we will do is have both 3" & 5" returns since most letters are built these days off of coils. We can use mods anything under .85 watts, BUT! It must be able to fit into a pattern (.dxf) I will provide which will basically be a "S" that has a stroke of 1-1/2".

With the use of a variety of special dedicated acrylics for LED lighting, different depth letters, we will really see that there is no one single "LED Mod" that fits all.

Also, once a LED line fails here there will be no second chances. This is comparison and not a race we will be dropping lines and adding lines as newer products come in, so the duration is "forever". The big question will be, what will last and stay consistent the longest?

I would invite manufacturer's to send a mini & mid level product because one will not work in both depths, but you never know! That's what we're trying to find out right?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Posted
Well said Bill.

I think what we need to do is again put this project in the eyes of a sign builder. Instead of trying to build a project around a light source, let's build a project and see what will fit and of course apply. Again, just like the GWH, this project will ask more questions than answer, leaving it entirely up to the builder to pick what light source will best fit their application.

I have built some demo letters that are 12" tall and a return of 5". I have mini mods .5watts and less to mods that are 1.8 watts each. The light being housed in such a small environment, you would think that the letter was being illuminated with Tri & RE Phosphor lamps. This is the perfect application for LED's in my opinion.

So what we will do is have both 3" & 5" returns since most letters are built these days off of coils. We can use mods anything under .85 watts, BUT! It must be able to fit into a pattern (.dxf) I will provide which will basically be a "S" that has a stroke of 1-1/2".

With the use of a variety of special dedicated acrylics for LED lighting, different depth letters, we will really see that there is no one single "LED Mod" that fits all.

Also, once a LED line fails here there will be no second chances. This is comparison and not a race we will be dropping lines and adding lines as newer products come in, so the duration is "forever". The big question will be, what will last and stay consistent the longest?

I would invite manufacturer's to send a mini & mid level product because one will not work in both depths, but you never know! That's what we're trying to find out right?

Please send me a vector file of the letter "S" that you are using for the test. I want to see if both LuxemBright Standard and the Mini Products will fit. But I want to check it with the software.

Thanks,

SE Sign Guy

Sign Lights, Inc.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted
How far along is this project? Any dates yet?

I'm hoping to have final specs done this week. Cyro is sending me their complete line of LED application specialty acrylics, we'll have a other manufacturer's as well, so this should make a nice comparison and not only for light sources.

btw- we'll use some of these plastics and compare what they do with the original "Great White Hope" project. See what light transmissions differences they might create.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Posted

updated

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

  • 2 months later...
Posted

Guess I am LOST, again...

Has the new test with the smaller white LED's started yet?

Are there any photos or details to report?

Posted

Slowly rolling, hopefully by the end of this month and still gathering LED's from various vendors. Small family crisis has left me short handed with work and in turn with less time to finish this project.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Posted (edited)
Slowly rolling, hopefully by the end of this month and still gathering LED's from various vendors. Small family crisis has left me short handed with work and in turn with less time to finish this project.

So, what was the final product criteria? Is the based upon the physical size of the modules or a maximum wattage? With the products listed it kind of looks like it just ended up being a free for all and not really a "MINI" LED module deal. Just wondering.

Sorry to hear you had a family issue. Those can be tough and really time demanding. But, family has to come first. Wish more people would realize that because we would be a better country and world.

SE Sign Guy / Sign Lights, Inc.

Edited by SE Sign Guy
Posted

Erik,

I'm flying into SoCal Sunday. I know it's Mother's Day and I'm certain you have some fancy plans for KGirl, but I'd love to swing by for a little bit if you have some time in the afternoon. I'll bring an assortment of modules and let you pick what works best for your demo.

You said Mini and Mid size, right?

Posted

Right, Mid to Mini.

Marcko got your message. I'm slammed with work, Sunday is tough, Monday& Tues I should be around for a couple of hours if you wanna come by and see the cabinet & grab lunch or something.

I'll call you in a bit when I get a chance, hectic this morning

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

  • 5 weeks later...
Posted

We're about to get rolling this next week, so thought I'd finalize the name. Hope you like it! :P

TW-Project-Flashbanner.gif

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Posted

I gotta say Erik, given the "promo model" inclusion with the last 2 tutorial banners, you could have done WAAAAAY better than a pair of old man's briefs.

I'm terribly disappointed :hitbyrock:

Posted
I gotta say Erik, given the "promo model" inclusion with the last 2 tutorial banners, you could have done WAAAAAY better than a pair of old man's briefs.

I'm terribly disappointed :hitbyrock:

Aaahahahaha. See, you like it! It could have been fonzi underoos, even more interesting... I could have modeled them this round :blink:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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