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I wasn't referring to you as "giving your product away". I was more referring to the instant sign man that believes he can sell ready made letters, with stickie led's, throw them on the wall without regard to wiring requirements for $60 per letter --------- and the customer is happy because he made a great bargain. And i know about young kids ---------- sit beside my kid on the computer and sometimes I feel old ------ but when he can't fix it, I get to, becuse of the experience. When you sit beside a whiz kid on the computer that designs a drop dead gorgeous sign ---------- and you ask how the hell they are going to weld inside a stroke tahts 5 inches deep, but only has 1/2" space ------ and they kinda look blank. Yes, kids have changed the world, and thus themselves. They get wrapped up in videos, and ear plugs, and fail to learn social skills. The get tuned into movies, and the realism of that "other" make believe world, and then figure its okay to bring those traits of "instant" sex, killing, mayhem, language, etc into the real world. Sure, the world is chaning rapidly, and not just kids. Look at all the old farts that wander around with things stuck in their ear because they just can't get away from the phone. Memorize stuff, like phone numbers, etc --- why" we'll just use our phone address book. Shit --- I'm old. gn

Sometimes its state of fear --------other times its a case of state of warnings. My niece and nephew were diagnosed as being ADD. I kept saying they were kids. So, they were put on meds, and became little zombies. Then they started having other issues --- not paying attention, etc, etc. Finally my sis in law started doubting the meds --------- and you know what, she got her two kids back. They are doing great in school, not on meds, and the docs pronounced them "cured". But --------- concerning mercury. It really IS a big issue. And its not really a case of if it does bad stuff all the time --- its a case of IF its the cause of doing bad stuff. Consider ------ IF half of the statistics are correct in autism, MS, etc. Consider IF the mercury that is IN flu shots, medicines, etc just might be a part of the cause. Consider IF mercury in food just might be a part of the cause for some of these issues. And then consider IF its your kid. My issue MIGHT have been caused by my work ---- but yet my merc levels were lower than a "normal" person. So, that was supposedly ruled out by the doctors-but evidence proves they MIGHT be wrong. My issue MIGHT have been caused by a flu shot that I had when I was a kid ---- They can't rule that out. My issue MIGHT have been caused by cholesterol meds -----and THEY CAN'T rule that out. But,you know --------- the symptoms are ALL the same. And personally I wouldn't want my kids to have it, whatever IT is. All I can say is bless the folks that have the ability, the compassion, and the perseverance to deal with the kids, and the parents of the kids, and the ass doctors who decide they are gods. gn

Referring to cold. Fluroescent, neon, merc tubes in general don't like extreme cold. When cold, merc vapor condenses. Heat of the tube, heat from the trodes, etc cause the merc to vaporize ------ and brighten the tube. When its COLD - and not 78 outside--it takes forever for the glass to warm up and enable the tube to come to full brightness. Now -----eventually if the sign is on long enough, etc, it'll brighten --------- but that's just about closing time, and the sign goes off again. In the spring -----voila, nice bright sign. Now, on the other hand --------when led's don't like the cold, or just are lousy and they go out ------- they are OUT! Never again to work. gn

That's why I hate email -------- its tough to fully explain stuff, and see that twinkle in one's eye!! But your response is what my question is. If he is trying to compare the "cost" of neon, and incorporate that into an example like Manuel ---- its apples to oranges. Manuel had the cost of the led as $3.50 ???? Period --- he didn't break down the time, the little diodes, etc to get the cost. It was "what can I buy this product for". So, with neon ---------- compare the same thing. Take the cheapest ass wholesaler in town that wants to give his stuff away --- and if he charges $12 for a 16" unit ------- THAT is your cost. He took the price of a power supply, and divided it by the number of units. So, if you have a 16" unit, and assuming single stroke, and assuming a "normal" unit, and a "normal" size, and roughly figuring 3.5 x ht for footage, about 4.66 ft per unit, and assuming 15 mil white, and assuming the cost of a 12/30 at the stated $95 price --- which I don't think is a "wholesale" price---and assuming 60 ft on a 12/30, thats about 1/13 of the "cost" of the tranny, or $7.31 for the tranny for that unit. And assuming that you were 'green" enough to use an electronic tranny, and assuming a ventex 12/30, and assuming it was fully loaded, and it pulled 1.5A, and again assuming 1/13 of the load for that letter, you've now got about .115 amps. So, now assuming that the letter is sitting on the floor, aka Manuel's example. Well, the tube supports are in it, roughly four of them, they have the tie wire on them, the tranny wires are sitting there, so does it take me 5 minutes to twist 4 wires, and twist two electrode wires together??? I think not. So, realistically, these types of examples show absolutely nothing except skills at math. And mine might be wrong by the way, but the point of my answer is there. My point, and one of my big bitches --- is that its easy to throw numbers out there. We've all seen the led specs on longevity, the perfection of their white, the beauty of their illumination, etc. And you know, we've all seen some of the shit signs that are out there --- based on a salesman doing his job and selling his product, and some sign guy saying, "hey, I can do it cheaper, and get rid of that high priced neon guy". Screw the learning of how to deal with a glass product -------- that's why God invented plastic and paper dishes for people like that------- let's just put in the perfect led, cfl, whatever, and believe all the perfect things about it. But, damn, its cheap. And we won't have to put up with that neon guy. But I'll tell you what --------- if you were to build sample letters, and have the proper specs to properly position that little sticky led things in letters so that the salesguy can't complain, and you use his power supply so that can't be aan excuse, and you use the same plex, etc, etc, etc ------ and you have all these letters laid out side by side by side --- and you stand back and compare ---------. We all strive to do it cheaper, thus being able to sell cheaper. Who makes out ------- the customer is the one. He's the ONLY one that benefits. But, and its a big one --------- there is a time place for these different means of lighting. There are advancements being made, and when they get their shit together and put out decent products that actually compare. There is a corporate id sign that I pass everyday. There are LED's in it ---------- and it is absolutely drop dead gorgeous. It is white - perfect white, even when its - 0 degrees outside. Stunning. Neon couldn't do that. Now, if it lasts -------- then I'll jump on that led mfg bandwagon and tell them --- you've got a good product. So, when questions arise about stuff, and folks are trying to compare things ------- my question is "what are you really trying to compare" and are you actually comparing what you THINK you're trying to. And that is a major reason why old guys like me are considered grumpy, and assholes. gn

Tidbits of info ??? The problem that I have is I'm not sure what you're trying to find out. Yes, a chart on this site shows that 15mil argon/9torr of gas uses about 3 watts per foot on a 15/30ma tranny. Not sure what you were using that number for? To compare to Manuel talking about LED's?? And why a 2' letter ---- meaning a 24" letter that has a neon tube in it, or a 2 foot piece of neon? Don't ask how many letters in an hour ------- ask him how many feet in an hour. I presume that there are more than one bender, and that someone else pumps and bombards??? You say they can process about 10-20 letters??? Is that in a day???? An hour?? Bending and pumping, or what?? And I don't understand, still, what the $6 figure is SUPPOSED to represent. And again, please explain what you're trying to figure out --------- electricty costs of neon, how much a tube bender can make, what he's worth, why you want to get better, what? gn

Manuel - I'm disappointed. Piss of old timers because letters can be made cheaper, or faster. What pisses me and other old timers off is because the new guys SELL those products and give their shit away.\ And do you really believe that age doesn't also bring experiences that can't be duplicated by someone that's 18 years old?? Assuming you're right --------- you'd back down what you know, what you can bring to the table because of your 30 years in led's etc to an 20 year old that managed to graduate from college, and is going to turn the industry on its heels with a brand new, undiscovered led that hasn't even been tested. Sounds like some of the doctors we have practicing. I take you on my team anyday --------. I can hire grunt labor ----- I can't find the experience that means shit. You know where I work, and we've discussed that very thing. Lots of talented people ---------------but expereince in the business???? And, please, don't anyone get me wrong. I'm all in favor of young people wanting to come in and LEARN the industry. But the key is to LEARN the business and not just rape it. gn gn

Jr-----you stated when you joined you are new??? I got lost on the $ signs that were in your post. I couldn't tell if it was a typo, or a computer issue. But, glass cost with labor --- $6 ??????? Damn cheap labor. 'And where did you arrive with 3 watts a foot?? And don't try to compare watts used in neon with the watt figures that are bandied about by LED folks. Different stripes. gn

Oh boy---------old sign guys intimidated by young pups??? I don't know about that - and that really isn't important. Consider outside of the sign business - any trade or skill. And you're good at it, you treat your craft well, you're well paid because of that skill, and some knucklyhead, regardless of age, decides he can do it faster, cheaper, cheaply made, etc, etc, --------- but I need to ask you how to do it first. How do you think that goes over??? Again, its not just this industry ----- look at the majority of young kids today. They want to make great wages --- but you mean, they have to work?? Lordy. And get to work on time. And do their work the way they are supposed to??? Damn, its a cold, cruel world. So, yes, sometimes, many times, us old farts shy away from answering questions. A - I don't know someone on the web. B- I haven't a clue as to whether he's going to kill himself following my advice, and C - most of the tmes the person asking the question doesn't care if the answer they get is a qualified answer - or just the unknown somebody giving them the answer they want to hear. When folks relate to the advent of vinyl --- yes, it cut the heart out of a very disciplined bunch of artists -------- and in doing so, it opened the refrigerator door for anyone that had $8,000 to invest in a vinyl cutter and now they are a "signman". And guess what ---- they all want to know how to do it. So, yes cynicism plays a major role. And now its led's. Anyone, literally, can make, build, install, and sell to some poor sucker a sign. Is there a place for them?? Yes/no, depending on how and when they get to the point where they hold up. As to the digital market - doesn't matter if its digital print, or led's or whatever. Sure there are some taht denounce the b.s. that marketers use to sell their crap. But,, yes there are some good stuff out there. Personally, I had one of the first vinyl machines in Phoenix --- and I didn't even do vinyl. We also owned the first Linde cac-cam machine that did routing and plasma cutting that was west of the Mississippi. So, its not like we're against new stuff----its just taht we're old enough to question the validity of some stuff i.e. led's. Lots of new guys, they love led's. Doesn't matter the brand, or their rquality --- but it lites up the sign, and they can sell it cheap because they don't have to pay a bender a wage - just hire $5 hr guys to pull stickies off the back. Take a good look in the archives in this site --- you'll see pics of shit installs that were done by "new" guys that called themselves sign people. Look at some of the questions that are raised, and tis very evident that they don't know, don't care to know, and they know that they don't know and don't care. I'm sure that some on the board remember the countless questions and suggestions on a particular job thru concrete walls, running ground inside of sealtight, twisting it into a roll to squeeze into a raceway, a totally bastard install ----and he went and did it anyway. ONly problem was ---------- he invited his customer to check out this website and found that his installer didn't have a clue. And then they called the city inspector, and UL --- and the proverbial shit hit the fan. But ------- some of us old guys try in our very limited experience to lend a hand. But, as I tell everyone ---- when you ask a question on the internet ------- you haven't a clue who the "other" guy is that's responding. Some on this board disguise themselves behind "disguises" if you will. Others ------- openly state who they are, and its pretty darn easy to find out if they really know their ass from a hole in the ground. gn

Using Lowe's and such as an example of non-compliance isn't good. They probably already comply ---its actually the smaller user, such as us neon guys, the mom and pops stores, the homeowners, etc that are more non-compliant. I mean, look at the numbers of lamps that are garbaged by residences. A very few small businesses actually properly discard their fl tubes, and compliance with neon people is non existent. I mean, really, who gives a shit ---- its only a couple tubes that are being thrown away. AND that is the real problem. Take a peek at one neon tube ---if your tube bender even knows, about 100-200 mg of merc in that tube. A CFL, on the other hand has about 5mg or less. Some other bulbs that are used have 5-10 the amount in a neon tube - but we think nothing of tossing them in the garbage, or outight breaking them so we don't have to haul them back to the shop. It is a very real problem. Look at our kids, look at the much higher incidence rates of autism, MS, etc, look at the issues of merc poisoning, and see if there just might be more than a causal relationship. But, yes, it might be an interesting meeting------------ gn

Ought to start with telling them how to sign in, go to the Tiki bar and say hi, buy a round of drinks, get their membership tag, and secret code to the "pictures". Then ----------- tell them how to post???????? And speaking of which -------------you've been lazy lately. gn

Nice disguise - almost looks like me. gn

Please share that when it comes out. gn

Since its supposed to be "open forum", and since I've already spoken with Paul Abernathy who is doing the seminar, along with Veolia Environmental doing their part to help explain, and having talked with ISA about the "scope" of what is and isn't going to be discussed ----------- I think they are giong to allow me to sit in the hallway. Maybe a disguise??? Hey, they don't know what I look like any more than you do ---------- so maybe I can slip in??? Incognito??? I'm hoping to get my good friend Marcus Thielen in on that seminar. I've also talked with Bernard Diffin with EGL about possibly attending the ISA show and being there. But, if nothing else, it'll be good for giggles. It's just like Califonia -------- pass the damn laws and then figure it out along the way ---- but at least the laws are in place to catch the scafflows!!! gn

Quite interesting isn't it?? They say don't vacuum --------. So, I doubt you can "get it all cleaned Up" using tape and wet clothes, especially on a carpeted floor. Then it says to open the window when you vacuum the next couple times??? And then you go use the vacuum downstairs in another room --------- and blow all that shit around again???? Another site says to "remove all clothes and discard". If nothing else --- it would make for an interesting clean up situation. gn

I'll be there ------ you might be interestedin the reycycling seminar. gn

I'm visioning it now ----------------- tada. gn

If you look closely at the tricycle and the 12" bike ----- the distance to the pedals is far less on the bike. Put training wheels on it ----------and the kid'll learn real well and fast. Then raise up the trainers up about 1/4" Still stable, but he'll learn t balance. then up a bit, then a bit more, and fainnly you don't need the training wheels --------- they have the balance already. Have a kid walk on a 2 x 4 on the ground. Hold their hand, and then challenge them to do it themselves. And then play a game with them ---- wonder out loud if you could walk sideways on it without "falling" off. And then, wow, I really wonder if someone would walk backwards without "falling" off. And with your eyes closed?? That's amazing !!!!! The kid will be showing off to EVERYONE. And then, have him walk along a brick edging--------. They have the balance, they learned to walk??? All you have to do is challenge them to "sharpen" their balance. Ever hear of a bongo board??? Old time thing ------- has a board with a lot in the bottom, matches against a roller that rolls on the floor, you stand on the board, and balance back and forth like a see-saw. Absolutely great for kids, or parents who are daring-do to learn how to balance. They learn how to balance, and also how to talk and move without interrumpting that balancing. gn

Well-----------I'm past the 25-35 age group, but I definitely agree. It's been this way forever, too many secrets, that aren't really secrets, too much back stabbing, and way, way too much incompetency that has allowed our trade to diminish in quality. I thinks its called a "me, me, me" attitude. Alot of it starts from society itself. As you speak of the seminar you went to - my time is coming up with the same attitudes when I go to Orlando for the mercury seminar. Isa is putting it on, as a johnny-come-lately, actually stating that mercury recycling didn't become an issue until the ban went into place in Vermont. Well, I ask, where in the hell were they, and all the other sign companies out in that area?? Sitting in the dark with their led flashlights?? Instead, now there's a seminar about recycling ------- and it'll be held, and pass by, without any answers that are feasible. Why, you might ask??? Because sign companies don't have a clue, and really don't give a shit about any recycling efforts, or their effect on our kids IF they don't give a shit. Why? Because the recycling organization doesn't have a clue. When they say that neon tubes are "different" than fluorescent tubes, when they say that fluorescent tubes ONLY have mercury vapor, when they say that the glass is SO totally different between the two - well, they don't have a clue. Then, we get to tie in the politicians who really don't have a clue. Kinda like Calif passing laws about light usage --------wrong!! Sharing of information, and ideas on this board is awesome. I also not many, many companies that come on, read a bit -------- and ignore anything where they might contribute. What a shame ------------ gn

Well, mine were 22 months apart. When we brought #2 home, #1 went into an actual bed with no railing. He was ready, and loved it. They shared a bedroom for about 6 months - and then moved into his own bedroom. He thought he was a "big" boy then. Course the same #1 was riding a two wheel bike with no training wheels at 23 months. Anyway - its not till later, like teens that they actually hate each other. gn

And probably the LAST time you felt, or experienced that "warm, fuzzy" feeling!!!!!!! gn

Yah, I know - that's why I replied to WCSG cake ---------- gn

Congratulations ! That's a darn good size baby - your poor wife. So, now that you have two out of the way ------------ let's get on with the third!! gn

I'm disappointed ----- I figured you artistic type would have done a "happy birthday" lit up with his hockey pucks ---------- gn

Were the outfits for him to enjoy ------------that explains why he loves to shop for you. It's called having an ulterior motive. gn

Morgan is a super nice guy. He was the first of several that I had come out to Phoenix to do a seminar in my shop to help better the trade. Very "real world" and very much a good spokesperson for the industry. He's one of the ones that you put on your contact list when you have questions about neon etc. Amd its actually Morgan Crook. gn gn