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Human skin is typically around 34 degrees. 44C is the threshold for causing 2nd and 3rd degree burns as contact time or temperature rises... If you have trouble touching something for more than a few seconds, it's probably around 50 degrees, and 60C would be in the range where you could touch it cause almost instant damage. I get in today and stay until Saturday. I've got a lot of things lined up but will be at the Nichia event also. See you there. That's exactly the question to ask. Being able to handle the temperature without failing is one thing, but as junction temp goes up, output goes down. That Nichia LED Manuel posted info on is currently an exception to the rule, but even an LED system using that LED would perform even better if drive current and temperature are lower, rather than higher - and that's reflected in the results on the GWH and Tightey Whitey tests. Axiom LEDs are really bright, but the efficiency of power to light is just average, due to the higher operating temps. If Axiom was to design for lower operating temps, the efficiency would increase but at some point you'd have to use more LEDs to compensate. The system would cost more, but last longer, but the current arrangement is what Axiom feels is the best compromise between efficiency and system cost, as every LED has that threshold you cross. It's important to have LEDs that can withstand high temps, especially in lighting products where you have clusters of very hot LEDs in a small fixture with minimal heat sinking, but generally speaking we design systems for 65C max which is WELL below limits of a Nichia or Toyoda based LED. Some stuff we allow to go higher, but anything over 85 will result in reduced output and shorter life. It's up to each manufacturer to determine what life expectancy is acceptable, but basically ANY LED can be made to last a reallllly long time if you sufficiently under-drive and/or keep it very cool, while the opposite is true as temps increase.

Just curious where that "62C feels hot" comes from? Some people have trouble with 45C, let alone 60+. Do you mean "Ouch, that's friggin hot!" or more like "You have to change hands after a while cuz it feels hot", like a cup of coffee?

That's what was in the article. They were replacing 750 feet of neon with 568 feet of Sloan LED. That's what their energy calculation they pitched to the customer, and article would have to be based on. As for power consumption, I got the info right from EGL. Electronics = 3.5W/ft. http://www.egl-neon.com/documents/neonefficiency.pdf The magnetic I was going on memory, but 6W is on the low side.

I can't say I disagree. I do think there's a place for LED border products, but this is one of those applications where neon does really well in many instances. Cold weather can be an issue, or certain colors. Running on solar would be a lot easier with LED, which is something gas stations should be looking into more and more, considering the entire canopy is generally unused and could house plenty of arrays - not to mention benefiting from the (stupid) cap and trade regulations that will be coming into effect. Speaking of gas stations, anyone ever wonder why you can't use a cel phone at a gas station, while there's 12000V neon running around the canopy?

It means that ilight initially sued Fallon for patent infringement and initially won. This was about to put Fallon into bankruptcy, but they later won an appeal of the ruling which states that they weren't in fact in violation and don't have to pay the millions in damages they were assessed the first go around. So not only did Fallon win, it also damages the validity of the patents themselves, meaning the USPTO may invalidate the patent entirely and is actually reviewing 2 other patents that ilight owns, potentially voiding them as well. Basically, it means that the lawyers will all make a lot of money. The USPTO hands out a lot of dubious patents that never should be issued, which forces companies to pay big money to settle in court, since the patent office doesn't actually enforce any patents. They only issue them, then it's up to private individuals or companies to blow their brains out in court making sense of what is valid and what isn't. In this case, it means that an LED border tube that has a tube-like casing/diffuser may be completely patent free.

Well - if it was 568 feet as they say, then at 2.8W per foot it works out to about 1590W Voltage drop reduces that a touch to say, 1550W. Then the power supplies are about 85% efficient at worst. Fully loaded with these sorts of runs they could be closer to 90% - so let's go with 87%. 1550W / 0.87 = 1782W true consumption, which works just fine on a single 20A breaker that they might have been describing in the article. Clear Red on an electronic tranny uses about 3.75W per foot, so the 750 feet in a best case electronic scenario would be 2813W or so, which should include the 0.90PF. On magnetic trannies it would be close to double power consumption - but let's go with 6W just to use a modest number, even though it could be higher. 750 feet x 6 = 4500W. Assuming 12 hours per day usage.... Sloan LED system @ 1782W = 7805 kWh, which at $0.10 = $780.00 per year in energy costs Neon on electronics @ 2813W = 12321 kWh, which at $0.10 = $1232.00 per year in energy costs Neon on magnetics @ 4500W = 19710 kWh, which at $0.10 = $1971.00 per year in energy costs At 24 hours per day usage (which let's keep in mind is often the case in colder areas for neon): Sloan LED system @ 1437W = 6294 kWh, which at $0.10 = $1560.00 per year in energy costs Neon on electronics @ 2813W = 12321 kWh, which at $0.10 = $2464.00 per year in energy costs Neon on magnetics @ 4500W = 19710 kWh, which at $0.10 = $3942.00 per year in energy costs So... It all depends on what they had before and what they used as their starting point for neon. In the case of magnetics that stay on 24/7, the savings could be $2382 per year, more if the power consumption is more than 6W per foot (which we know can be the case). Did I do the neon calculations right?

Interesting choice of words. There's people would would argue it takes a sheep to believe that christ ever existed the first time. I would seriously like to know what LED people you guys are meeting to get the impression that beings shared here, or is it just hyperbole?

Mark - is that you?

Was there images of the new sign in the original article Erik? I scratch my head every time I read an article about something visual that fails to include an image of some kind. It's like buying a Playboy and not seeing any skin. I think including a link to the original source would always be a good idea with these news items.

Good work ISA. Banning neon outright would be very short sighted - there have to be exemptions is place for specialty products and projects.

It's important to note that sign ballasts and light fixture ballasts are not the same. Sign ballast are made to operate with different numbers or lamps and have switching circuitry to adjust to the load. A light fixture ballast made for 2 x 48" lamps has to be used with 2 x 48" lamps, period.

Nah, most of the staff is from MI or PA. I often feel like I have Betty White on the other end when Carol answers the phone.

I don't know. My hunch - based on where they are made and what prices they sell for is "there's a good chance" - but that's not enough to make that accusation. I'm not about to start the legal proceedings to find out, either, but I'm hearing from several different fronts that there may be a shit storm coming for those who think the LED business is about to become a patent free, wild west game.

If the patent was as generic as "phone with batteries" then maybe. The difference is that the patents have to be much more specific and are often almost identical to a different one that might have only one minor (but critical) difference. The new patents have less to do with the "battery" and more to do with the "process used to make the battery", or "make it last longer", etc... Most LED patents have nothing to do with "make blue chip glow" and have everything to do with really specific things like epitaxial wafers, bonding processes, etc... and these patents will continue to exist. The patent that is about to expire is the first type of Blue LED, which is the basis for White LEDs. This opens things up to more companies producing patent-free Blue LED chips, but if they use a specific process that was patented later, they violate the later patent. Since the largest number of patents started after 1990, 2010 is the date that they will begin to expire. Remember though, that many of the patents relating to the process or chemical compounds will continue, and these are the ones most critical to making quality, bright LEDs.

The thing to remember is that while one patent may expire, Nichia has a whole lot of them. Nichia and Toyoda go right back to the beginning of Blue and White LEDs and almost all subsequent work is based on their initial research, and even both companies patents are based on the work of the other. Some of the oldest patents that may expire soon are probably at the point of being useless anyways, since technology and process has changed a great deal. For example - does anyone give a shit about a patent that covers say, a cordless phone powered by 2 rechargeable AA batteries when battery technology has changed so drastically?

It's not expiring - Manuel just wants to find out what BS is being spread out there so the culprits can be suitably slapped on the wrist - as fair warning that Nichia does take legal action when provoked.

You don't recycle anything?

I haven't heard a thing - and would think Dan or Shawn would be the guys to ask.

Yeah - 120,000 square feet is about the size of a Home Depot store. Yes it is, though the Sheboygan facility is much larger than the one I visited, as I understand it. Hope you don't mind the linkage... Kieffer Sign, brought to you by Google Street View

60 miles or so. Coulda been worse ;) Google Street View to their facility. (wait for the streetview to load after the map does) The sign out front is sorta blocked by the big evergreen, but it's a wing shaped piece mounted on a single pole. Really nice. I think in their case, they do so many architectural jobs for hospitals, universities and such that are all working on LEED themselves, that it gives them a big advantage when bidding.

The rule with cabinet depth vs lamp hotspots (or shadows). The depth from face to lamp should be equal or greater than the space between lamps. Anything more and you'll get shadows. For example... a 6" deep cabinet will show lamp lines of the lamps are even 8" apart. I know most would run them even 10" or 12" apart but they do so knowing that if there isn't vinyl to diffuse this effect, that you'll see lines behind a simple white face. D/F is a little trickier since the light bounces around and fills the airspace differently, but I would generally say that the distance between faces should be no smaller than the distance between lamps, ideally greater. The type of face material makes a difference, of course. Same thing with LEDs. If you have a 4.3" deep channel letter, your LEDs shoudl be no more than 4.3" apart in order to avoid spotting. Many people use modules like GE or Permlight or Axiom at 6" spacing, but if the cans are shallower than 6" you'll get spotting more often than not. Longer shaped modules help, but putting modules closer together is the best way.

It really comes down to the local inspector's interpretation of the NEC and of UL48. UL is not the only standard out there, so if you're not a UL shop then it's the NEC that you have to follow - unless the inspector himself is going by UL48. Even in that case, you can review it with him and perhaps sway him one way or the other. There is a reason why Class 2 is given some exemptions and next time around, will probably be more specifically exempted from the tougher guidelines currently covering grounding and such. That's the whole point of Class 2. Really - talk to the inspector candidly and show him the specific references within the code. He really may not know and could probably benefit from knowing more about LEDs anyways, since they're only going to be used more and more.

Judging by the taped-on cast on the guy's right leg - I think he's probably the owner and not eligible for comp (or is that law different in the US?). At least they're in decent vehicles with decent Featherlite ladders - not like some rusted out 1982 pickup with a hand cranked boom that's about to fall apart.

Was having a discussion with someone about how some electronic components have 12 weeks or more lead times, while some parts got discontinued entirely. All it takes is one unique capacitor missing in order to make your finished assembly impossible to produce. We're not in that boat, fortunately, but it sounds like one discontinued part was the issue here - as was implied to me re: Ventex at the show.

There's just such a huge race to the bottom that I don't think we want to be a part of. There are always mid-to-high end clients and projects that want a quality, product that doesn't need to be cheap - that we're made to spec in North America is starting to count more and more as well. I should admit I'm headhunting as much as anything else ;)