Jump to content

ELECTRIC SIGN SUPPLIES

If You're Looking For Premium Electric Sign Industry Components Like Trim Cap, LED's, USHIO LED Lamps, Neon Supplies, or LED Power Supplies, Then Please Visit Our Online Store or Feel Free To Call Us For Inquiries or Placing an Order!!

Buy Now

NATIONAL SIGN & SERVICE COMPANY REVIEW LIST

For Sign Company's Who Work As Subcontractors

Before You Work For A National Sign & Service Company You Need To Look At The Reviews Of These Companies Before You Work For Them. Learn When To Expect Payment From Them and What It's Like To Work For Them, The Good, The Bad, The Ugly. Learn and Share Your Experiences Yourself For Others

You Must Be A Registered Member & A Subcontractor
Click Here

MEMBER LOCATION MAP

Looking for a fellow Sign Syndicate Company Member For A Sign Install or Maintenance Call? Locate a Supplier or Advertiser Regarding Thier Goods & Services?

Become a Member & Upgrade Your Free Membership So Others Can Locate You
Click Here

Recommended Posts

Originally Posted Mar 15 2014 05:43 PM

The Great White Hope II - (Year 1 & 2)

February 2014 - Present

Light%20Test%20AdvIII.jpg



The only thing we ask is, if you like what you see and if it helps you make better buying decisions for your sign applications that you build then you can support us and the tests we do by either upgrading your free membership to a Board Patron which has it's additional benefits or by purchasing electrical sign supplies that we sell here on The Sign Syndicate as you'll see in the test result sheets! sml%20(26).gif


One thing that we don't sell here on The Sign Syndicate for the exact reasons of these tests is sell Neon Glass or LED Modules because I know most would think us bias if we did. So because of this, we'll only sell electrical sign supplies that compliment these light sources such as LED power supplies, and neon wiring & Transformers etc.

You'll also notice a lot of Light Source MFG's signed up here on the Sign Syndicate and submitted their lamps for the testing. Some did not, and you'll see "Non-Willing Participant" next to their name in the Tutorial product listings. Most did not want to because they did not want to be compared to their competition or called out on their claims when they show up to your shop and tell you you should buy theirs because they are superior to their competition. Well, all we can do here is include some of those MFG's anyway and throw them up on the board and see where they might fall. We hope some of them at some point join us and take part because they want to. They ALL have an open invitation to do so. We thinks it's a good idea and there is a lot to learn and most of the time it just begs more questions than results can answer. If you are a Light source manufacturer interested in having your lamps included then please upgrade your free membership to a Board Vendor (which includes a free advertising package for the duration of your membership) and submit your lamps


I first to want to start off by thanking everyone who has been involved with this project from the start and continue to make it better, I want to specially thank Telford Dorr for this immeasurable measurements, Marko of YYZ LED Systems for helping to move this project in a better direction and the Vendors who have participated with their products for this comparison.


Though 6500 SW is the standard here for comparison you'll see a variation of whites, not all are of course in the same ballpark, but you will see where pending the application you might choose one over the other.


You might see some edits done on this tutorial over the course an that is because information may/will change.


Every month power readings and light output readings will be added to this tutorial. Other tests may also be done not yet defined at this point. A picture will also be taken with the same settings and placement.


THE TEST:

First, The Great White Hope II is for high powered LEDs 1watt + and above, all others below are for Project Tighty Whitey. This is also for Neon & Tri-Phosphor Neon Lamps.

Like our other tests, we are taking period reads and measuring the light output of every single light source in our test right on the sign face which is made up of a 8" x 8" marked square on the same spot every time and we average the highs and lows.

For the initial power consumption measuring for the LEDs we are using a GW Instek programmable power supply. This PS measure and tells us what each string pulls as if the power supply they were on is running at 100% efficiency. Why we do it this way is because the power supply YOU use for your applications will vary and we want to level the plain field.

On the Neon side of things we are just going to use the age old France Footage/Watt Chart, this is also to assume the neon is running on a typical magnetic power supply. We are also not including the 1 extra foot of power consumption per pair of electrodes per lamp because this would greatly skew the numbers of small 2' light sources.

The main thing about this benchmark test is that we are looking at lumen maintenance and how much each product will hold up over time and monitor the light degradation. One thing I wish we could measure and monitor is the color shift over time of each product. Maybe we will get access to a spectrometer in the future because there is a huge shift of some products over time and we will notice in our yearly shots that we take for comparison.



SIGN CHANNEL STRUCTURE

Well, instead of the large sectioned out cabinet we had for the first Great White Hope this time we did assimilated to our other tests and fabricated individual channels for each light source.


LIGHT SOURCE PRODUCT LIST (Top to Bottom)

  • Axiom LED AXLE9XB
  • 13mm EGL DL 61 ((Tri-Phosphor 60ma) *-Non-Willing Participant
  • 15mm Voltarc 6500 SW *-Non-Willing Participant
  • 13mm Voltarc 6500 SW *-Non-Willing Participant
  • 15mm FMS TC 6500 (Tri-Phosphor)
  • 15mm Glostertube 6500 6500 166 (Tri-Phosphor)
  • 13mm EGL DL61 (Tri-Phosphor)
  • 13mm Voltarc Tri-Lite *-Non-Willing Participant
  • 12mm FMS TC6500 (Tri-Phosphor)
  • Permlight El Plato HO *-Non-Willing Participant
  • GOQ LED *-Non-Willing Participant
  • GE Tetra Power Max *-Non-Willing Participant
  • International Light Technologies Summit
  • Sloan GW4 *-Non-Willing Participant
  • Permlight Twister *-Non-Willing Participant
  • Hyco CooChip

SIGN COMPONENTS

  • 1/8" Cyro #7328 White Acrylic Lens Faces
  • CCFL Transformers- Ventex 6030/60CL
  • CCFL Transformers- Ventex 6030/30CL
  • Axiom 60 Watt Class II LED Power Supplies
  • Transco TC200 Porcelain Housings
  • FMS Neon Tube Supports
  • Plasco Trim Cap



DURATION:

This project is never stopping, it runs for two 10 hour cycles a day 365 days a year


NEON & LED POWER:

Unlike the first Great White Hope where we had dedicated power sources for each lamp are are copying our other light test projects that consist of all light sources on a shared power supply. For the LEDs are are using the surplus military grade Axiom LED Power Supplies left over from the GWH (So to continue their endurance at 40k+ operating hours) because of the manual DC voltage set screw to assure we have exactly 12volts across all LED strings to level the playing field. For all Neon Lamps we are using our surplus SST Ventex Neon Transformers to again, continue to monitor their endurance as well at 40k+ hours of operation. All Neon lamps are on a shared SST.




EARLY TEST PICTURES

Finally lighting up all the neon side of the project
post-3-0-19189100-1391039473.jpg


The same for the LED side
post-3-0-87881300-1391034401.jpg


The back side of the project
GWHII%20Shot1.jpg

GWHII%20Shot2.jpg




March 15, 2014

Today is the first evaluation since the project has been ongoing. The only thing we have in news is that as usual all the Neon lamps are taking their initial lumen maintenance that comes in the first 1000 or so hours then we'll see them plane off gradually.

Below are the pics of the class of 2014.

I'm just going to show off one pic of the Neon, because no one will be able to distinguish one from the other.

PIC1
GWH%20neon.JPG


Hyco CooChip
CooChip.JPG


Permlight's El Plato HO
El%20Plato.JPG


GE's Tetra Power Max
GE%20PTM.JPG


GOQ's Quad Chip LED
GOQ%20LED.JPG


Sloan's GW4
GW4.JPG


International Light Technologies Summit
Summit.JPG


Permlight's Twister
Twister.JPG


I'm currently looking to add US LED's Quasar 3, Osram, and Agilight and whatever other LED manufacturers decide to join us in this ongoing comparison project.

In a short observation we're already seen a 16% drop in light output from the CooChip and we'll see what happens next period.

Just this month a national sign company gave us a few strings of AgiLight LEDs that they wanted to see in our various tests that they also use for a national sign program. The string that we will be putting up for GWH II will be the Apex series, this will be for April.

Some of the LEDs we have in our tests come from sign companies who are curious about the performance of products they use, and when doing so it helps us all out and we all learn.


MARCH 2014 EVALUATION DOWNLOAD


SEPTEMBER 2014 EVALUATION
10/30/14

It's been some time. In August we added Axiom LEDs AXLE9XB module at 14.7 volts on a dedicated power supply, the LEDs come in at 1.6 watts each.

AXLE9XB
Axiom%20AXLE9XB.JPG


We're a little over a month of reporting these late September results and about two weeks short of doing Novembers. It's been some time so I may add or make changes to the above information.

The download sheet for September can be found here

Link http://www.thesignsy...arison-results/

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

October 22, 2015

This month we took out International Lights Summit, as discussed on other projects this month the reason is because some products are dated, or the Vendor is no longer associated with the board.

A couple of months ago we added Principal LEDs "Qwik Stik", and this month we added in their Fusion 4 LED.

Fusion 4

post-3-0-29861100-1445731192.jpg

This period we also added in our cabinet comparison shot, something I thought we did long ago but did not.

post-127-0-87117900-1445882396.jpg

One thing we may change out is the NC LED quad chip HLC4S to the new Samsung 1.6 watt module, but we'll see on that.

October 2015 evaluation download: GreatWhiteHopeII 102215.pdf

supporttopic.jpg

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 months later...

January 03, 2016

This month we added in NC's High Powered Constant Current HLC4 1.8 watt Samsung LED.

post-3-0-55794200-1456689307.jpg

We also had a failure of our 60ma Neon unit. I'm going to have to find another Neon Processor for this task. I have a feeling I'm either going to have to find a reliable source to redo all or look to have each redone again by each Neon mfg which I would rather not have to do because of shipping and because each lamp would be processed differently. Right now I'm looking at lamps that that are smaller in diameter that are just as bright as larger diameter lamps which should not be. We're not getting the same results as the original Great White Hope which is disappointing.

January 2013 Evaluation Download: GreatWhiteHopeII 010316.pdf

supporttopic.jpg

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Similar Content

    • By Erik Sine
      JEWELITE TRIM CAP NOW IN STOCK!!!

       
       
      I am very proud to announce that we NOW stock Jewelite (Vidon) Trim Cap
       
      We just brought in a good sizable stock load of both 1" & 3/4" Trim Caps.  One of the awesome things about Jewelite is, it's now of the few components in our trade that is actually made right here in the Good ol' U.S. of A
       
      Our Current Sign Syndicate Trim Cap Pricing as follows:
      3/4" x 150'  6+ Rolls $46.75 each    1-5 Rolls  $51.25 each
      1" x  150'   6+ Rolls $56.75 each     1-5 Rolls $61.25 each
       
      **Discounted shipping on orders of 6 or more rolls.
       
      You can call in/email your order 858.880.1400  |  orders@thesignsyndicate.com  or try our online shopping cart 
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • By Erik Sine
      **OUTDATED POST & INFORMATION**
      Our Current New & Improved LED Technology LED MODULE is the BrightON LED Series 
      More Light per Watt, Longer Life, Lesser Modules & Cost... located Here
       
       
       
       
      If you can find an LED that competes with our Reckless NC LED I should would like to know.
      Is it Constant Current and NOT constant voltage? Reputable high grade diode such as our top tier Samsung? Is it consistent? Is it made in CHINA? Most importantly does it last? How do you know it lasts? I'm not talking about catastrophic failure and I'm talking about gradual light degradation in a short about of time. The Reckless is only 3% light loss in 15,000 Hours. Are they IP68 for wet location?
      So far everyone who has tried has bought more as it relates to the applications they use it for.
      The Reckless is the brightest in it's class under 1watt modules or 3 watts per foot


      Constant Current Red HLC2


      Also, introducing our new LED Power Supplies. Union Power Supplies, IP68 for wet location, they come in 60 watt, and dual channel 120 watt units

      So far we haven't seen any LED manufacturer who claims to be the best or brightest in the same class compare in a true white rendering, in brightness, or in longevity. American companies using Chinese LED's just don't seem to last or stay consistent over time.
       
      THE RECKLESS
      • IP68 UL/CE
      • 5 Year 50,000 Hour Component Warranty
      • Constant Current
      • 3% Lumen Maintenance in 15,000 Hours
      • Made in Korea
      • High Grade Tier Samsung Diodes
      Most importantly.....NOT made in CHINA!!!!
      You can visit out online Shopping Cart and order here or call in 858-880-1400 / orders@thesignsyndicate.com
    • By Erik Sine
      The BrightON-II LED  .vs  The Principal Qwik Mod 2 LED
       
      So....we've been getting lot's questions on how our New High-End BrightON II LED compares to The "New" High Efficient Principal Qwik Mod 2 LED
       
       
      Well, we did a quick "side by side" benchmark comparison to find out.
       
      They have some basic similarities.  
       
      • .8 watt modules
      • Both 170˙/175+ Optics
      • Both have Aluminum PCB
       
      We compared both LED modules and placed them in 24" x 4.5" x 5" channels using a standard Plexiglas MC white #7328 white acrylic face to simulate a wide channel letter stroke .  Modules spaced 6" OC from one another and 3" from the channel walls.
       
       
      Now to find out what the differences are...
       
       

       
       
      Once we lit the channel compartments one big difference was the white appearance of each light source.
       
      The Principal Qwik Mod produces more of a yellow white illumination on the sign face, whereas the BrightON II is more of a True White.  The pictures here may not do justice as it's hard to capture Real Time and Real Life along with how your display may be calibrated.
       
      Both BrightON II & Principals's Qwik Mod are .8w modules....The BrightON II is 24V LED module, the Qwik Mod is 12V LED module.  
       
      24V means half the current flowing through the system of a 12V system, which translates to lesser heat, lesser resistance than a 12V system.  A 24V system is more reliable and a longer life system over time for the very reasons I stated.
       
      A 24V system allows you to use a larger single watt channel PSU (96w).  The BrightON LED system uses the France Lighting Solutions "True Power" LED Drivers to complete the system, "True Power" means users are able to load the PSU to 100%, where as other LED PSU's are recommended not to go beyond 85% of the rating.  A full load 96W France PSU can load 120 BrightON II LED modules.  France Lighting Solutions LED Drivers are the only Drivers to date that are 100% loadable.
       
      With a 12V system a single channel 60W LED PSU is typically loaded at 85% or 51W of a 60W unit, or 63 Qwik Mods.  You can load more modules on a single unit but you would have to be looking at using a 120W PSU that is a dual 60W channel unit.
       
      Luminance
      Right away the biggest take away from this LED comparison in the image below is the Sign Face Surface light output results in Foot Candles using a ExTech Light Meter measuring the High's and Low's in the 7" x 4" rectangle area of the acrylic face.  
       
      The BrightON II has a Foot Candle Average of 209 versus Principal's Qwik Mod coming in lower at 171 Foot Candles.
       

       
       
      Constant Current
      A HUGE difference which will play big in lighting and in life is how the current is driving across each module.  The BrightON II is of course Constant Current, NOT Constant Voltage.  The Qwik Mod is Constant Voltage.
       
      The quickest, simplest explanation and differences is this.  On a Constant Current system, each module has a current regulator chip which means each module is current regulated, and protected not to overdrive and create more heat and run hotter.  The first module on a Constant Current string is equally as bright as the last module on a string....the result is consistent lighting.   If you've ever paid attention to the light testing we have been doing on The Sign Syndicate since 2009', you would know that the best and lowest light degradation or Lumen Maintenance results always came from CC LED systems, Constant Voltage or "Eco" Modules not so much.
       
      In a CV System you better hope your LED PSU is not driving above the intended voltage of 12 volts.  A slight increase in a fraction of a volt... say...12.2V can kill a LED system fast depending on the makeup of the Modules.  When we did our Light Testing "The Great White Hope" we had a incident where a LED PSU operating at 12.25 was used on a Permlight "El Plato Module which was CV and in under 30 days the original output dropped 30%.  We had to kick out the PSU and start over with another string of EL Plato's using a manual adjustable LED PSU to assure not to go above 12V.
       
      On a typical CV System on long runs the first module will be brighter than the last module on the same string, inconsistent lighting, with a not well regulated LED PSU CV LED will tend to run hotter and brighter in some areas causing a shorter life.  The system is solely dependent on the module resistors for protection.
       
      In Short....
      Constant Voltage = Lesser LED life over time
      Constant Current = Longer LED life over time
       
       
       

       
       
       
       
      Lighting Angles
       
      Below.....you can take what you want from this part...
       
      We used equal underexposed shots from both LED light sources from a Canon SLR Camera instead of Real Time to show our audience where the optics is transferring light
       
      We used a lighting angle chart that we created, made up of 1" grids just to help in displaying where the optics and throwing light.  Both Module have wide angle optics, I would just say that the Brighton II throws more light towards the edge of the chart and a little higher up the middle.  
       
       

       
       
       
      What It All Means
      In closing, the biggest differences that can be taken away from this benchmark comparison and what separates the BrightON II are a couple of big factors.
       
      • The BrightON 24 volt system which has half the amperage, heat, & resistance than the 12 volt Principal Qwik Mod LED system.  You're also able to load more LED modules on a 24V system than a 12 volt system
       
      • If you're looking for a more "Purer" white light source, better bin, then the BrightON LED Module family is for you.
       
      • More light for less power on the sign surface....better chip efficiency... that was just displayed and shown in Foot Candles....BrightON II  209 FC over Principal Qwik Mod 2  171 FC
       
      • Probably the single most important factor?  The BrightON LED Family is Constant Current rather than a lower costing system that uses unregulated current in Constant Voltage.  What that means for user is....Longer Consistent Life Over Time
       
       
      The New BrightON LED
      The previous High-End BrightON LED version has had a lot of success since the launch.  What is new?  Only some miner changes were made to make a already superior LED module even better.  Same high efficient chip, improved 6500 Kelvin, different optics.  
       
      Not that we needed it but, the BrightON is, and has always been underdriven but....we changed from a Fiberglas PCB Board to Aluminum.  Aluminum provides better thermal cooling, but again, it wasn't needed....it's just nice to brag about it and say we have Aluminum.
       
      The New BrightON LED Family will in stock by early May 2021.
       
       
      **UPDATE**
      The BrightON LEDs can now be purchased from our our online store HERE, or you can order over the phone (858) 880-1400 |  orders@thesignsyndicate.com
    • By Erik Sine
      We have always been proud supporters of our Electric Sign Trade and have always been proactive in doing what it takes to help preserve our Trade and it's most valued tradition....that being Neon.  
       
      Despite the misinformation that has been put out about Neon for decades now, Neon is very much a light/energy efficient light source and the most durable light source we have in our trade over time and we have plenty of case history to support this. 
       
       
      WATCH OUT
      As most of you may or may not know, there has been a huge shortage of the availability of Glass Neon Housings for Neon....and what has been available has been a lot of Chinese Fake UL Marked (Embossed on the glass) Neon Housings in the market for some time.  
       
      They Claim a UL mark, BUT...they aren't a U.L. Recongnized accessory or sign component     .i.e. SSI / "Neo" Glass Housings have no valid listing with fake embossed UL Emblem
       
      The biggest complaint for some time has been the threads are terrible and it made tightening at times near to impossible.  The other bad aspect was that the glass walls were too thin, and with just a little bit of heat they were cracking or a incidental drop bump might cause them to crack and break prematurely, some simply cracked on tightening mechanically to a sign body .
       
       
      Also, it's bad news if you're a Wholesale Shop or Custom Sign Shop integrating these knock-offs into your signs.  It's passing along a fake listed product and should something happen like a "fire" I can't imagine Insurance Companies will be too happy about the use of a "knock-off"  
       
      I've done my best in the past to look for and supply vintage housings that were listed for the Neon Arts and help with keeping that art going with Porcelain or older glass housings which we still do have plenty of (#100's & #300's).  But now we have those hard to get components to keep those awesome Neon Open Faced Channel Letters and Wall Signs going without running into shortages of components or options.
       
      NOW IN STOCK - Westrim U.L. Recognized Sign Accessories #100, #200, #200P, #300 Neon Glass Housings
       
      You can Purchase these from our store or contact us to place an order or inquiry (858) 880-1400  |  orders@thesignsyndicate.com
       
       

       
      NOW IN STOCK - Westrim U.L. Listed #100, #200, #200P, #300 Neon Glass Housings
       
      You can Purchase these from our store or contact us to place an order or inquiry (858) 880-1400  |  orders@thesignsyndicate.com
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • By JeffMix
      Opportunity Neon Person! Know a good bender who thought neon was over, well it's not!
      Great signs
      Good pay/benefits
      Super clean shop and top of the line equipment
      Neon work!
      Good damn people.
      Music City!
      I can't say enough what a good place this is to work. They've been in business now for 40 plus years. Super solid reputation in the city and well connected. They've done 90% of the signs on Broadway and they're full of neon. I've been here for 2 years now with 40 hours of work every week. If the glass is slow you can also jump into electrical etc. I had been out of the trade for a dozen years and didn't think I'd find a job again doing glass full time.
      If you're a solo one person shop and sick of those headaches come to Nashville. I wasn't looking to leave however our 3 grown kids are all back home in Vegas and 2 of of them sign guys (where did I go wrong?) My friend Bong Gonzalez  passed from covid and I'm going to be taking over his position in Vegas. I really wish that this was not the case. He and his Dad were staples in the neon world in Vegas and just damn fine men.
      Again if you were a bender back in the day, it's like riding a bike. In a few days it was mostly all back and now I have a greater appreciation for something I thought was gone. Again you're in a shop with super talented folks front and back.
      Please email me pictures of your work and your experience etc to jeff@joslinsign.com
       
       
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Featured Products



  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Back in the late 90's, before i ended up buying the family business, my parents talked to several different business brokers.   it took nearly almost two years to find one that was trustworthy.  One just wanted to sell us a book about the history of the business, another couldn't get any interested buyers, some just want to put your business up on a website, etc.   I eventually bought the family business (still not sure if that was a good idea or not) and we worked out our own terms.   Plus there was no brokers commission.   One of my realtor customers is also a business broker and we're supposed to get together.  With COVID on the wane, I hope to meet him farily soon.  Maybe one of your customers is a broker as well as a realtor.   I suggest that you reach out to SCORE and get some free help.   SCORE is part of the SBA and it's all free and the people are eager to help you.   Eventually I am going to have to sell and have been doing monthly zoom meetings to go over that subject, plus lots of other "stuff".    I'm now 63 (and wish I had contacted SCORE thirty years ago) and figure I can afford to retire in another 35-40 years.  :)     Go to the SBA website and search for what you want and they'll match you with someone.   I'm in the local chamber of commerce and another business owner told me that it took him 3-4 years to make one of businesses "bankable" because most buyers don't have the cash to buy you outight.   They will have to go to a bank for a loan so all your books, inventory, etc. will have to be set up so a banker can understand your business and approve the loan.   I'm supposed to catch up with that guy and get more details but we never seem to be at the same meetings.   Again, SCORE will have people who can give you better information than "some sign-guy on the internet".     What I can say that I've been upgrading equipment, having things serviced professionally, keep the trucks on regular maintenence schedules, etc.    When I bought the business, most everything was old and run down but I was used to it and knew what needed to be replaced right away and what could stay.   No one will want a business where a lot of equipment is close to the end of it's useful life.   "New and Shiny" sells better than "old and dusty" even if the old stuff is better than the new.   Best of luck!
    • What's the best way to sell my 51 year old commercal sign business?   millersignsinc.com     Tanks,     Rob
    • I know Neon Wizard does
    • Hey Brian, I tried to get to the art room to ask our Flexi techs. But, it was a busy morning.   I know in Corel Draw if you have the text converted to curves. You can look in object properties at path and it will show the path length. Which is the distance around the letter plus inserts.
    • Thanks Rocco. I was able to find suppliers that would ship to us. But, we would be on our own for set up and training on the new machines.   We are going to send our fabricator to a couple of shops that have purchased from our prospective supplier and check out the equipment before we buy.   Thank you for taking the time to reply!
×
  • Create New...