Jump to content

Do not register with a hotmail.com / Outlook / me account.  Hotmail lists this site as spam and your registration will not be completed because you will not receive a confimation

ELECTRIC SIGN SUPPLIES

If You're Looking For Premium Electric Sign Industry Components Like Trim Cap, LED's, USHIO LED Lamps, Neon Supplies, or LED Power Supplies, Then Please Visit Our Online Store or Feel Free To Call Us For Inquiries or Placing an Order!!

Buy Now

NATIONAL SIGN & SERVICE COMPANY REVIEW LIST

For Sign Company's Who Work As Subcontractors

Before You Work For A National Sign & Service Company You Need To Look At The Reviews Of These Companies Before You Work For Them. Learn When To Expect Payment From Them and What It's Like To Work For Them, The Good, The Bad, The Ugly. Learn and Share Your Experiences Yourself For Others

You Must Be A Registered Member & A Subcontractor
Click Here

MEMBER LOCATION MAP

Looking for a fellow Sign Syndicate Company Member For A Sign Install or Maintenance Call? Locate a Supplier or Advertiser Regarding Thier Goods & Services?

Become a Member & Upgrade Your Free Membership So Others Can Locate You
Click Here
tdewitt

Collecting a debt

Recommended Posts

We had a customer that we did several signs for in a real quick hurry, customer paid the 50% deposit on the entire bill, we put up the signs on all 5 of his locations and then went silent, couldn't reach him, wouldn't return our calls....nothing. I found his home address and drove to his house as it actually turned out to be only about 4 miles from my home. They were home but would not answer the door.

Two weeks go by and I start noticing the business heading down the tube, less and less people coming and going and then the stores wouldn't be open when their hours said they would be. Then about a week later they are all closed except one of them in a town 25 minutes south of our shop. I scrambled and blew up every phone number I could find for anyone that may have ties to him... After finally getting a hold of him he stated that the IRS had seized the stores and he had nothing to do with them any longer... I can't find any evidence of any of this on any websites.

What are your experiences of getting money out of someone that has claimed the IRS has seized their business? I will be contacting my attorney in the morning but just wanted to see if any of ya'll had any stories...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Travis,   I feel your pain...first of all, was it a lot of money?  

Also I highly doubt IRS would seize anything in a short amount of time...however he could be going bankrupt.  Then you may get something down the road but it may not be worth it depending on what he owes you.  Do you know anyone else that did work for him?   Obviously you're not the only one he's beating...other vendors, landlord, employees etc

try to find out as much as you can on your own...attorneys will charge big money for info you can dig up yourself. 

Best of luck...

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, it was about $4500.00... I actually spoke to him yesterday, he stated that he cannot file bankruptcy because the IRS seized his assets???

I have NO idea about all of this, but do believe that he is telling me a long line of lies to keep me reeling.... We have our attorney looking into it to see what we can do. I also found out that he just started another business renting campers and from what I'm told he just purchased several hundred thousand dollars of new inventory so I'm guessing the money is there he is just not paying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether or not the IRS seized his assets should not negate his debt to you.  A lot depends on the contract  wording, such as what remedies will be available in case of a default.   Usually the original contract should specify what will happen if you don't get paid.  If he's a corporation he might be able to hide his personal assets.  

I really hope you can get paid.  Good luck and keep us informed if you can ...............

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lien the property, the store, the guy, his dog, everything and anything he is associated with. Its a  lot cheaper then you think.

Then go to his existing business and remove your sign, its your property ( depending upon your contract wording )

Go to his new location and tell him you want your money, he robbed you. No difference between him and a thief.

Show No Mercy to him. Call all the Town Depts for all permits and violations.......Start the computer up and let the public know

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2nd on the Lien on the property.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definatly put a Lien on the property.  Actually send a notice of intent to lien to him and the landlord(s).  Its likely the landlord will be the ones paying you.  BTW unless you want to lose the $ its now time to ratchet it up and be ruthless.

Now its lesson time. For ANy customer Big, small, local or out of state you need to make some rules and stick by them. You need to have contracts that clearly state how you are to be paid and if needed what the remedies will be if they try and skip out on you.  In the contract it also needs to state that the signs are your property until paid in full installed or not. Also when I did retail I rarely would do any work without 1/2 done and remainder  when you show up on site. If you go and get ready to put up sign and he forgot he check book in his other pants tell him you will be back when he has the right pants on. If the person is a pain about paying a deposit they damn sure will be a pain when its time to pay in full.  If you feel like extending credit then ask for credit references and get the person to sign personally as well as corporate. In the case of nationals dont just get a signature from just anyone make sure its a principal or it means jack shit.  Also it helps if you take credit cards but remember the process folks get 3.5 % or more. We have not charged off ANY deadbeats in years. I could be lucky or collect $ like a mobster....

I am sure I missed some stuff that others may add.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve,   I think we had the same teacher in the same business school. 

I have never " Not been Paid " by anyone.  I have zero collections because of the above business policies.
By the way.....I have " repossessed " Church signs right before Holidays , National Chain Restaurants just before Opening Day and placed Liens on National Chains and their Top Management People.  No one or Nothing is off limits when they attempt to steal from me.
Once they see that you are not fooling around, they always pay. AND DO NOT forget to charge for all the additional time, legal expenses and aggregation. 
If you remove the signs, they pay additional for that and then to install them again.  No Mercy

NO Credit Cards on problem Jobs.  Credit Cards can be cancelled up to 18 months later and then you are F#$&ed

This only happens once every few years when we don't follow our own policy
No Deposit means no work, Problems with Deposits means problems with the balance

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep the only time I get bit is when I break the rules.  Had a guy stringing me along on getting a deposit and we still did the design, got eng. and permits which tooks 2 months at variance hearings.  Fast forward the guy still kept forgetting his wallet and needed a Banner for grand opening.  I did so and the day of I show up a 1/2 hour before the news and the mayor and all the grand opening stuff and forgot his wallet again. Quite a big deal.  BTW the way had just retired from pro ball and had a world series ring.  In front of him and all of his big shot friends I took out a knife and shredded his banner.  He was pissed and embarrassed and said I fucked up his event. After he was done yelling I told him that when I get back to the office I was calling the city and cancelling his permit which would set his highway frontage sign back 3-4 months. That he card take his quote and my card and stick it his ass and to lose my phone number.  Best 2 grand I ever lost.  I would rather lose money than let someone steal it from me.  That was 25-30 years ago and still enjoy reminiscing about it.  

BTW never give out your design drawings.....

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll 2nd Paul and Steve. I find that repossessing the sign goes a long way, but be sure to charge them for all of your time to repossess and re-install the sign. I always make that clear before I remove the sign that if I have to send trucks out to repossess it, they're paying for all the work I'm putting in to collecting. 

It works.

Liens sometimes work, and they're fairly easy to do.

Always, always, always collect at least 50% up front. If they don't have money in it, they don't care about what happens. 

Be wary of customers who tell you that price is no object. That's what a scammer will tell you. Sometimes that's true, but half the time price is no object because they don't plan on paying you anyways.  ALWAYS collect 50% up front. It's not just a deposit, it's earnest money ... their commitment to you that you're not wasting your time doing drawings, permitting, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK...technically you can not reprocess the sign once its installed on the property or building. You can get into more trouble than the whole thing is worth.

Here's my late dads solution....indicate that there is defective material on the sign and it may fail...Need to take back to the shop to work on it....Say you will have it back up asap....and when they call..say sorry its taking so long..we are working on it...and oh by the way...it must of slipped by...but did you know you have an overdue balance. 

  We have done it a few times over the years and my dad did it to an attorneys wifes store...and he got paid!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, Travis - - - any luck yet?  Can you give us an update?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Lien on the property is the best course of action. If he's blowing smoke and actually selling the business, your lien will put the brakes on a sale. Once he has money on the line, you'll become a much larger priority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm 100% with Paul on not holding back. If you have someone who is ripping you off, why go easy? Do you ever plan on working for them again if they are a no payer? Are they going to write a bad review about your company because they are a dead beat you have paperwork to back up?

Hit them fast and hard so they see you're not playing around.

That's food from your family's table they are stealing, take it seriously.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, here's and update...

 

The guy has lost everything, and quickly, I guess it had been a long time coming and he was robbing Peter to pay Paul. All of the stores are closed, his house is no longer his, and anything he does still have in his possession is in his son or Wife's name so it can't be touched from what my lawyer has stated.

 

I have made contact with him but he just gives me the sorry Charlie story. Not sure what avenue to take now as my lawyer has said there is not much we can do that will result in getting paid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that you should create the right circumstances to get paid such as 50% deposit and payment on delivery prior to installation. That is our policy an we rarely have a collection problem. However sometimes you will get into a situation in commerce that requires additional efforts to get paid. In commerce Liens are a good way to put on the pressure to get paid. Also Learn how to go after the Performance Bonds that are purchased by the person you contracted with for them to get their business license. You go after the bonding company that bonded the company. Most are unaware that there are 2 sides of the accounting ledger public and private. Sounds like in this case you could create an Affidavit of Truth which is a first hand account of the truth or facts. This can be attached to the private side of the man that did not pay you. There are options for collecting from the private side. I would call a law researcher named Winston Shrout at www.wssic.com and he will point you in the right direction. Winston is in his 70s and has been studying all types of law for many years. Equity law, Commercial Law, International Law, Admiralty Law, Canon Law, and Common Law. It may cost you $200 for a conference with him but much less than an attorney.  He will give you some material to study so you know what to do. He has transcripts and video guides to help you understand the law processes. He will answer your email questions after you study the materials he suggests for your case. You will not need a BAR attorney this is something you will write and file into the public record yourself. Winston has won many many cases and acts as his own lawyer Pro Se. There is a difference between attorney and lawyer. Once you know the difference you will be on the right track. The BAR is a monopoly and we Americans don’t like monopolies because they are unfair and are by nature designed to extract the maximum they can squeeze from you. Learn how the system works and save lots of money by doing it yourself. Also you avoid any future headache by learning where the snares and landmines are located. This is not hard to do but If you are not inclined to study and follow directions then this path is not for you. So fair warning to butt heads you will be your own worst enemy. Know thy self. Good Fortune to all.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure of the rule of law in your state but,  If you file a lien its on the property and property owner.  If the guy that stiffed you owned the properties than you can collect on the sale to release the lien.  If someone else owned it they are liable.  Thats why many companies go crazy getting lien releases when they pay in full.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very sorry that happened to you.  Wonder what in the world he did to have the IRS seize everything he owned??  That's crazy!  Hopefully he didn't own the properties where the stores are so you can file a lien on the property so the actual owner of the property will have to pay you.  Not really fair to make them pay, but better than you losing all of that money!!  Best of luck getting paid.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now




  • Topics

  • Posts

    • So...   I haven't posted any jobs lately and I need to play catch up.   So I'll start with our latest projects and work myself backwards   As we've discussed so many times on the Sign Syndicate.  There is a time to retrofit, and a time not too.  Neon and Fluorescent lamps/systems should not in most cases be retrofitted to LEDs unless accessibility calls for it.  Otherwise, it doesn't make financial sense for the consumer to do so, or....just so a shop can make a project sale on BS energy efficiency numbers and mythical saving $$$$   So here are some retrofit jobs that make REAL sense.     NEON RETROFIT     Here's a chain of Studio's that I've been doing since the early 2000's.    This particular sign is only partially mine, everything from the Logo and red letters.    This was the first job I did for them leading up to fabricating all new signs for their locations.  The white is from the previous location and Neon has been in it's original form since the late 90's, and it's 6500K Snow White.  The logo is 15mm Tri-phosphor, Elite 65D I believe.  The Logo and Red was done in 2008.  It's very hard to tell because red and white is hard to capture and a cell phone cam does no justice but the White lettering is dimmer than illustrated and is about 50% of it's original light output.    Not bad for 20+ plus year old lamps!!   So the owner called up and wanted a revamp.  Had I been the average shop you bet the immediate response would have been LED!  SAVINGS!!!!!  BULLSHIT!  BULLSHIT!   Well, no.    We're logical over here in SoCal, a land where 50¢ modules would have replaced the Lamp Art.   The logical choice, and more economical choice for the consumer?   Going from a single halo phosphate 6500K Snow White Neon lamp to a Tri-Phosphor EGL Designer 7100 Series Lamps.   When we moved and installed (2008) this sign we did so with Tecnolux Silicone GTO and Caps.  All that was needed for this retrofit was new lamps, and leaving the awesome silicone GTO and transformers in place!   Now, I owe you a night shot, the iphone pic I took was garbage, so I'll update that soon.  But the Logo and White letters match up well, and even with the old faces, the sign illuminates like a new sign at night.    Forgot to mention, the white faces are also from the 90's and they've held up quite well, the Trim Cap is Plasco, also held up quite well for 20+ years old.  During the day, the ace look good, so no need to replace.     LED RETROFIT   So a new client...   They called, they were moving and wanted to know if they needed a new sign or whether to fabricate a whole new on because the current was lit up like crap.   Had hot spots, dim a places, and just crazy outages in sections of letters.   It would have been better had I taken night pics, BUT...I didn't know I would be posting and writing about it here so   Had this been some other shop, I'm sure the nightmare would have continued         Yes, two different LED manufacturers in the same sign Woohoo, the electric sign industry in it's finest form right here!  It made me SO proud!   If you're familiar with Gaverieli Plastics, I need say no more, let alone Chinese JS LED's....well, their both China and their both crap.  The second sign which they had, made at a different time and by another company was US LED, also garbage.  Illumination was just as bad.  Sorry, didn't get pics of that sign because again, it wasn't my plan to make a post here   If this wonderful, thoughtful sign package doesn't make you cry, I don't know what will.   The original plastic was green vinyl over white acrylic and in such a short time this sign was beat, and probably why they called a new contractor for the work for their sign move.   Well, a new sign made no sense.    They were just moving a few suites over and they weren't going to get a larger sign so the original would do.  New faces with 3M Lime Green over White acrylic.   The most important aspect of this Sign....   Yes!    NC Reckless-3 LEDs.  Top Tier Samsung Diodes running on a Constant Current system...NOT Constant Voltage.  1.2 watt modules.  Most important detail about our NC Reckless LEDs?  Their made in Korea NOT CHINA!!!     Beautiful!       Check out that crazy light meter reading!  That's almost 300 surface Foot Candles, which is about the equivalent light output to a 13mm Tri-phosphor white Neon Lamp behind white acrylic.   If that is not simply utterly gross and disgusting, and you're not just sickened by that number, you have no stomach   These Reckless-3 LEDs will NOT be powered up by their low budget power supplies but rather our Union LED Power Supplies made in KOREA, not CHINA!!!             It's usually best to retrofit out with what was already in a sign, and not change one light source to another.  It's makes more financial sense in MOST cases, not all, but most.          
    • Don't know the color, but what's with the burn marks where the apostrophe would be? 
    • Greetings fellow sign laddies and gentleman   Just taking a shot in the dark here but I am working on Tilly's neon mall sign and I'm having a hard time identifying the correct Pantone color for the blue background for this sign. Any help would be much appreciated. Photo attached.   Thanks     
    • Hey everyone, I'm trying to reach out to the people that use shopVOX and see how do you record projects that you are donating to non-profit organization. We still need to list the price/value of the project however when we record the payment and it goes over to QuickBooks we don't want it to show the cash/balance in our account. For example we do a $1,000 project donate it, how do we record this and it not show as $1,000 in our cash balance for received money? Thank you everyone for your time and help with this.    Also if anyone has other recommendations on shopVOX or other software you highly recommend please let me know. 
    • Well if I told you, I'd have to shoot you.... 
  • Latest Videos

×