Neon vs. LED

[DAVE THE NEON GUY]

A good customer of mine has recently made the decision to shift most of his channel letter busines to LED applications. I have done over 40 sets of channel letters for one particular account over the last several years. Recently, he did a set of channel letters for this account and opted to use LED as the illumination source. He told me Friday that he needed me to do a set of letters quick because his client (who owns four of these restaurants) complained that the letters were not bright enough.

Let me give you some specs and you guys coach me up on how his problem can be improved. The letters are upper and lower case (25 letters in all) Caps are 28". The font is a similar to a Souvenier Bold. The cans have a 6" return and he uses white acrylic with transluscent green vinyl on all the sets. He used only one strip of LED lighting components. The sets I have done have all been 6500 White 15mm double stroked.

I know very little about LED applications and would like very much for you all to let me know what can be done, if anything, to achieve the same light intensity as neon in this type of application and the costs invoived in doing a job of this magnitude. I would like to compare it to what I charge for Wholesale Neon channel letters :weld: .

[signeye]

A good customer of mine has recently made the decision to shift most of his channel letter busines to LED applications. I have done over 40 sets of channel letters for one particular account over the last several years. Recently, he did a set of channel letters for this account and opted to use LED as the illumination source. He told me Friday that he needed me to do a set of letters quick because his client (who owns four of these restaurants) complained that the letters were not bright enough.

Let me give you some specs and you guys coach me up on how his problem can be improved. The letters are upper and lower case (25 letters in all) Caps are 28". The font is a similar to a Souvenier Bold. The cans have a 6" return and he uses white acrylic with transluscent green vinyl on all the sets. He used only one strip of LED lighting components. The sets I have done have all been 6500 White 15mm double stroked.

I know very little about LED applications and would like very much for you all to let me know what can be done, if anything, to achieve the same light intensity as neon in this type of application and the costs invoived in doing a job of this magnitude. I would like to compare it to what I charge for Wholesale Neon channel letters :weld: .

Dave,

There are very few options to single stroke with LED white product to get close to neon. What LED product was put into the job? The fact that you have double stroked your letters in the past is something the LED guy missed, no surprise. Who advised you on this? When I was dealing with customers in the past, it was important to know what had been in the cans before I sent a layout to the customer. Also, the fact that the light was going through green is another issue for white leds as they are blue in thier original state. They are then coated with phosphers to bring the K temp into the correct range. With that being said, the green and blue wave lenghts are being picked up by the vinyl and it makes this a very difficult application for SOME lower power LEDs to deal with. You need 1/2 watt or 1 watt LEDs to start with, probably double stroked and then you better get a layout from somebody who knows neon as well as the LEDs being concidered. Last, was it a 30mA or 60 mA tranny? Good luck.

[YYZ]

I have to echo most of signeye's comments - it largely depends on what LED was used. If you can find out, we can give specifics.

Generally speaking, though - of course double stroke neon is gonna be brighter than single stroke LED. If it takes 2 strokes of neon, it will take 2 strokes of LED also (possibly more if you're using a lower grade product).

As for lighting a green face, you also want to use a better color temp in the White. We did a job like this in Hawaii (green vinyl on white face) and used a "C rank" LED which is a cool white, rather than a "B rank" blue/moon white like most product out there. The customer was thrilled with the end result, which was vastly brighter than the aged neon they were replacing.

Rather than the lose the job to someone else entirely - would you consider supplying the LEDs yourself? How many feet of neon would you estimate is in each set of channel letters?

Edited April 29, 2007 by YYZ

[B.O.P.]

I am inclined to agree with these guys that in order to approximate the face brightness of double stroke neon under these circumstances you would need more/better quality LED's. Of course this means the finished letters will cost even more compared to neon illuminated letters.

If you want to make it even more attractive to use neon, consider using one of the tri phosphor whites of the appropriate color temperature for the faces instead of a standard phosphor white. EGL, TecnoLux and Voltarc all offer a selection of tri phosphor whites. You should be able to use a single stroke instead of a double stroke and get close to the same face brightness due to better color rendering. This means less glass and less transformers. You can charge more per foot or unit (however you price your work) so you can still make decent money for the glass, but it will still cost less to manufacture the finished letters and you will have a better illuminated letter.

[Travis]

The customer was thrilled with the end result, which was vastly brighter than the aged neon they were replacing.

Well no shit! Pardon the colorful expression there YYZ but that is pretty much a no brainer. Could have put a new set of neon in to get the same 'my stuff is brighter than the old stuff' line.

Sorry about that Dave, the general rule of thumb is to treat the LED's just like neon. One stroke neon, one stroke LED. Two stroke neon, two stroke LED, etc.. Of course, as Signeye and YYZ mentioned, you have to find a good LED that will meet your needed criteria and you have several LED systems to choose from.

[YYZ]

Well no shit! Pardon the colorful expression there YYZ but that is pretty much a no brainer. Could have put a new set of neon in to get the same 'my stuff is brighter than the old stuff' line.

Of course new neon woulda looked great as well. I never meant to imply otherwise - just that they were planning on converting over to solar as well, so the 12V operation was something that swung them to LED as well. Not that you couldn't run neon on solar, just that the implementation is cheaper/simpler with a low voltage system.

Hawaii actually burns diesel for their hydro, so any efforts to lessen load on the grid, or prevent new loads, is greatly encouraged.

[ELPADREMAN]

You could of course use green phosphor coated tubing - it's brighter than whites and will add even more punch to a green fascia (depending on the green).

Depending on the geometry, you might even be able to drop to single outline?

I notice the LEd suggestions have not suggested green LED's. Why?

[signeye]

You could of course use green phosphor coated tubing - it's brighter than whites and will add even more punch to a green fascia (depending on the green).

Depending on the geometry, you might even be able to drop to single outline?

I notice the LEd suggestions have not suggested green LED's. Why?

No high powered Green LEDs on the market at a reasonable price. Most greens and blues are in the low power family and the majority of channel letter work in the States is red or white.

[B.O.P.]

You could of course use green phosphor coated tubing - it's brighter than whites and will add even more punch to a green fascia (depending on the green).

Depending on the geometry, you might even be able to drop to single outline?

I notice the LEd suggestions have not suggested green LED's. Why?

Wouldn't the white acrylic behind the green overlay filter out a lot of the green spectrum?

[YYZ]

Wouldn't the white acrylic behind the green overlay filter out a lot of the green spectrum?

Yes. Clear face with green vinyl, or green face would work better.

I notice the LEd suggestions have not suggested green LED's. Why?

My first guess would be that it's a specific pantone color they're trying to match and a green light source isn't close enough (as was the case in HI for us).

There are some good green LEDs out there, but they are priced pretty much the same as White LEDs, which is higher than the perceived market value to users so few system integrators use them for channel letter products since it's slower moving product. It wouldn't require any new tooling or setups, simply a change of diode colors when going into production, so I'm surprised more don't offer it as a special order item. We plan to stock it in HP.

[fishing nut]

A clear face with green vinyl will work as long as you use a diffuser film so you dont see the strokes through the vinyl.

Yes green lighting it will bring out the color as white will only transmit the green spectrum of the light through it and block the red and blue. Thats why letters lit with green are so much brighter than white. If you are going to use green make sure it is a rare earth color so it holds its output. (Tropic Green or HP green). Standard green will look good at first but loose a large portion of it's output very fast and in a year will look as good as snow white does.

[ELPADREMAN]

Sorry, all. I had slightly mis-understood the sign face design.

Using green phopsohr is not on - it will make the white acrylic green. Not what the client will want.

A good broad spectrum white like 6500, or a triphosphor of similar colour will be best.

[imanut]

Sorry, all. I had slightly mis-understood the sign face design.

Using green phopsohr is not on - it will make the white acrylic green. Not what the client will want.

A good broad spectrum white like 6500, or a triphosphor of similar colour will be best.

Think you still missed it--------customer had white plex, with green vinyl. 6500 is still not a good choice.

[DAVE THE NEON GUY]

I have learned more than the price of admission here. Keep debating the subject. I like the suggestion regarding using the Green EGL designer glass.... I also like the suggestion of using something other than 6500 white and switching to single stroke...... Don't stop the debate.

[Erik Sine]

90% of my channel letters are 13mm rather than 15mm, depending on the stroke.

Also Sean is correct on having to use diffuser film on clear backs, you will see the neon 98% of the time. You need the white back to spread or create an even light before the translucent vinyl. As for Green plex, I have yet to see one I like.

Here is a job I did using EGL DL 71/61 (One of the two) single stroke 13mm. I wish I had a pic of the sign which was green plex to the right and the reverse channel letters to the left of this sign. My sign is brighter than the green sign to the right and has a brighter halo than the sign to the left. Keep in mind this is LumaHaze, I'm losing light out the front and back and it's still brighter as described.

[fishing nut]

90% of my channel letters are 13mm rather than 15mm, depending on the stroke.

Also Sean is correct on having to use diffuser film on clear backs, you will see the neon 98% of the time. You need the white back to spread or create an even light before the translucent vinyl. As for Green plex, I have yet to see one I like.

Here is a job I did using EGL DL 71/61 (One of the two) single stroke 13mm. I wish I had a pic of the sign which was green plex to the right and the reverse channel letters to the left of this sign. My sign is brighter than the green sign to the right and has a brighter halo than the sign to the left. Keep in mind this is LumaHaze, I'm losing light out the front and back and it's still brighter as described.

nice lookin sign, Good choice on the color.

[joemomma]

Green spectrum, block out the red and blue, filter this color, filter that color. This is all very new to me. I've always used red behind red, blue behind blue, green behind green, etc., for no other reason than I thought it was just the sensical thing to do. I'd like to learn a bit about what you guys are talking about. Can somebody tell me where to go to learn a little bit about the spectrums and filters, etc.? Travis, I already know you're going to tell me to go to hell to learn about red, so save the wear and tear on your pecking finger, or pecker as we call it in Kaintuck.

[Erik Sine]

When I did green plex, when I did green plex I think I used that fluorescent green

[signeye]

Green spectrum, block out the red and blue, filter this color, filter that color. This is all very new to me. I've always used red behind red, blue behind blue, green behind green, etc., for no other reason than I thought it was just the sensical thing to do. I'd like to learn a bit about what you guys are talking about. Can somebody tell me where to go to learn a little bit about the spectrums and filters, etc.? Travis, I already know you're going to tell me to go to hell to learn about red, so save the wear and tear on your pecking finger, or pecker as we call it in Kaintuck.

Any Face material is going to knock down the brightness of any light source. What I did when I started to learn about LEDs was to learn more about the kelvin temp scale and extensive testing, thanks Westinghouse. We all kinda know it from buying 6500, 8300 or 4500 white when it came to glass but it was just a color. Now the game has changed. You need to understand how that color apears on the face of a sign. It may sound strange but I found alot of information in the photography industry. They are always concerned about light color even if it is off 100 degrees kelvin. The pigments in plastic resin will block out certin wavelenghts of color in the spectrum. Do some basic research on the color spectrum and then call your plastic suppliers, skip sign supply guys, and start asking questions about this topic. You may have to dig but you will find some interesting answers to your questions.

[joemomma]

Thanks for the advice, Chuck.

[DAVE THE NEON GUY]

I want to thank all of you with your thoughts and advice. Bless all of you. :weld: