Mounting Signs On EIFS

[Batch]

I have a job that has 5" and 8" EIFS over concrete mounting 30" self contained channel letters.

Anyone run into these kind depths on EIFS?

If so what did you use for mounting?

I think it is crazy to use EIFS of this depth over concrete with windows above and below.

Edited May 30, 2007 by Batch

[Erik Sine]

I was tryign to figure out what the hell this Dryvit was that you guys were talking about now I think I know, I ran into it once. I researched the web and found this.

WHAT'S EIFS?

EIFS ("Exterior Insulation and Finish System", aka "synthetic stucco") is an exterior building wall product and is a system of materials. EIFS provides insulation, weatherproofing and a finished surface in a single integrated product. There are various types of EIFS and several ways of installing it, but EIFS is usually applied onto the outside face of exterior building walls, in a series of steps, by professional plasterers, using hand tools. The installation steps are:

o Attach rigid foam insulation boards (white, above) to the building wall (gray, above) using an adhesive or mechanical anchors.

o Apply a paste-like adhesive (blue, above) to the insulation, using a trowel, and embed fiberglass reinforcing mesh into the wet adhesive.

o Apply a colored, textured surface finish (yellow, above) to the dry adhesive layer (blue, above).

There are several types of EIFS, including the traditional barrier type, and the newer EIFS with Drainage type. The above description is of the simplest type - a barrier EIFS.

There are also a number of wall claddings that are not EIFS but that look a lot like EIFS (and vice versa):

o Portland cement exterior plaster, also known as stucco, is not EIFS. Stucco has been around for centuries and consists of Portland cement+sand+water, and is applied in a series of layers to a total thickness of about 1/2" to 3/4". Stucco is hard and brittle, provides no insulation, and requires "through-joints" (joints that go all the way through the stucco, known as "control joints") every 150 square feet. Also - and this is important - there are various forms of "stucco", some of which are thinner and use synthetic materials, and are often called synthetic stucco. These "stucco" products contain no insulation and hence also are not EIFS. It gets better - sometimes the EIFS finish coat is used as the "top coat" on such stucco products. Such claddings are sometimes still called "EIFS" when they are, in fact, "stucco". Thus, even though such walls "look like" "EIFS", they are "stucco", and the "top coat" - the EIFS finish - should be considered to be "paint".

o DAFS (Direct Applied Finish Systems). If you take the insulation layer out of an EIFS and apply the EIFS coatings directly to a substrate, you have what is sometimes called a Direct-Applied Finish System or DAFS. Since DAFS have no insulation, they are also not EIFS, although the use of an EIFS finish product on a DAFS makes a DAFS look a lot like an EIFS (hence the confusion).

Many colors and surface textures are available with EIFS. EIFS can also be made into carved or contoured "shapes", which give a wall a decorative effect and "shape".

EIFS does not support the building, but rather is a cladding, like brick or siding. EIFS is very lightweight, has excellent insulation characteristics, and is moderately priced.

EIFS can be used on many types of buildings, including homes, apartments, condos, offices, shopping centers, high rise buildings, stores, hospitals, hotels, stadiums, government buildings, and many more. It is simply an exceptionally versatile and attractive product, and hence its popularity.

EIFS can be used on new buildings and on existing buildings. EIFS can also be prefabricated in a factory as ready-to-install wall panels. EIFS can be attached to concrete, brick, masonry, plywood, Oriented Strand Board ("OSB") and gypsum-based sheathing.

EIFS now accounts for about 10% of the new wall construction in the USA. EIFS was developed in Europe after World War II and was first successfully commercialized in North America in the 1960's.

What I had to install were 4' letters for a dealership 23 letters. The wall was your alum studs with the foam or styrofoam board then the layered synthetic stucco. My tranny's were remote, I remember drilling and none of the plastic screw anchors holding in, or at least only half of them. But the upswing was, we had access to the back which meant swapping out some of those screws for bolts. I do remember thinking "What a cheap flimsy piece of shit wall".

Back to your story, and you say there's concrete behind it????? so forget bolting it unless you have access behind that wall, well you might just have to find an extra long bit and plenty of all-thread.

[joemomma]

The biggest concern when mounting something with weight to EIFS is that sometimes you have to tighten your fastener so much that the EIFS becomes depressed (not psychologically). With 5-8" of foam behind the EIFS, it seems this would be your main problem. We would probably use concrete wedge anchors (pictured), with spacers (made out of 1/2" EMT) the same length as the depth of the foam with fender washers on the face of the building. I know these anchors come in lengths at least up to 12" long, but you may have to use 1/2" to get the length you need.

[joemomma]

I was tryign to figure out what the hell this Dryvit was that you guys were talking about now I think I know, I ran into it once.

I'd guess that 2 out of 3 channel letter jobs we do outside are in EIFS. I'm surprised you see so little of it.

Also, if you look in one of the trade magazines, you'll probably find manufacturers of monument signs that use EIFS and foam. We installed a 5'x10' non-illuminated one out of the back of a pick up. From start to finish, about 2 hours, 2 guys. What surprises me about EIFS is that the hooligans haven't yet learned that you can do some major damage to it with a swift kick. When it first came out, I thought that would be a major problem. I also found out once (only once) that you can do some major damage to it with a bucket truck.

[YYZ]

I'd guess that 2 out of 3 channel letter jobs we do outside are in EIFS. I'm surprised you see so little of it.

Also, if you look in one of the trade magazines, you'll probably find manufacturers of monument signs that use EIFS and foam. We installed a 5'x10' non-illuminated one out of the back of a pick up. From start to finish, about 2 hours, 2 guys. What surprises me about EIFS is that the hooligans haven't yet learned that you can do some major damage to it with a swift kick. When it first came out, I thought that would be a major problem. I also found out once (only once) that you can do some major damage to it with a bucket truck.

We see a fair bit of it up here as well, and I'm not a big fan of the stuff. Having spent time in Europe and the Caribbean - I'm all for REAL stone/plaster/stucco - which is more common in Southern states and why WCSG wouldn't have seen as much of it.

I once nicked the corner of a newly finished building while carrying a ladder and the owner absolutely freaked. It's just styrofoam with a thin layer of fiber and colored stucco. You're right, one kick and there's a gaping hole in the wall. I personally would never use it if I didn't have to - and if I did - not on the ground floor. That same building I nicked now has repair patches all around it, and despite using the same color stucco, the patches stand out because they haven't worn under sunlight the way the original finish has.

Don't know about your light source, but it would probably be much easier to run power for LED than for neon.

Edited May 30, 2007 by YYZ

[Travis]

We use a sleeve of emt or pvc as Joemomma described. Many times we find that there is nothing to fasten to behind the foam so we will use a stringer of some sort to span the metal stud framing. We have learned to just be prepared for anything with this stuff. Even though many times we are allowed to give a 'list of demands' concerning what we need for our installation, such as having plywood behind the foam, but rarely do we see the list followed thru.

This stuff is a high dollar repair for sure. One of our guys just knicked the corner of a soffit area, similar to YYZ's description, and the shit hit the fan. I looked at it and reported that it was nothing much and should be a pretty simple deal to fix, I was even chuckling when saying this to the boss. Needless to say he wasnt laughing, at all. He gave me a run down of what has had to be done in the past with patches like this along with costs. I wasnt laughing anymore. And even with the expensive patches it still never matched dead on.

[joemomma]

I have a job that has 5" and 8" EIFS over concrete mounting 30" self contained channel letters.

Don't know about your light source, but it would probably be much easier to run power for LED than for neon.

I don't really see how you can say that YYZ. A self contained letter is going to have one penetration for the power whether it's NEON or led.

[universalsupplyco]

I don't really see how you can say that YYZ. A self contained letter is going to have one penetration for the power whether it's NEON or led.

[joemomma]

I must be famous. Now, people are quoting me with no comment.

[B.O.P.]

I must be famous. Now, people are quoting me with no comment.

[joemomma]

See what I mean?

[YYZ]

I overlooked the part about 'self contained'. Of course if he power supplies are internal to each letter, the penetrations would be the same.

If the power supplies or trannies were remoted, however, then there's no question that LED is easier to run. I've been informed that in California, using LEDs makes getting permits a 5 minute breeze, due to the Class II low voltage power feeds being much easier than conduit, flex, etc

[Batch]

The EIFS was 8 1/2" deep and the concrete was 10" deep.

We could through bolt the bottom and we did so on all the mounts we could. The tops were mounted using a shield,furniture lag and a coupling nut with all thread....

[PhoenixStucco]

Are there any recommendations for the best types of anchors to use for lightweight signs on EIFS? 

<a href=" https://www.phoenixstuccocontractor.com/"> Phoenix Stucco Contractors</a>

[Erik Sine]

Toggle bolts

[Rocco]

It depends on what's under the EIFS.   If it's plywood under the foam, then toggles are fine for a lightweight sign.  If masonry, we've come to like the titen HD (simpson strong tie brand) anchors or long wedge anchors.   The Titen HD screws are more user friendly than tapcons IMO.   They come in a variety of sizes, sometimes even at the big home centers.   Just check to see if it's densglass (fiberglass wall panels) under the foam.  Engineeners have told us that densglass isn't "structural" and that things need to be thru-bolted with uni-strut (or equal) sleepers across studs inside the wall.  A few years back, we were called out for an emergency call where someone had installed some large raceway channel letter signs to an EIFS wall that had densglass behind.  They used lag screws.  These held for a while but a heavy snow caused them to fail.   And toggles should work with Densglass but again not for any heavy loads. 

 

In any case don't compress the foam too much.  A sleeve (mentioned above) would be needed for whatever the depth of the foam might be, though probably not needed for something light like an ACM panel.   if it's a really small sign, then appropriate exterior screws are usually OK going into plywood.