Layouts?

[manuellynch]

A lot of sign companies that convert from SloanLED to AXIOM LEDs always ask if we would do layouts like Sloan.

On a given job our products are about $500-1000 less in cost for the same or higher performance.

I have a basic problem with an LED company doing a sign layout - it basically is taking the "know how" away from the sign company and relying on an LED company who may have limited experience in building signs for end customers.

I am curious to hear people's opinions on relying on a supplier to do a sign layout for you.

Also if we are saving customers the amount we are would it be crazy for us to charge $100 to do a layout guide?

[manuellynch]

and...if any sign company does lay outs on a regular basis on their own and wants to be a service provider - let us know.

[YYZ]

Perfect job for a co-op student, stay-at-home mom, someone off on comp, etc... though some experience in Corel or Illustrator is a must. You'd need to train them a bit on spacing, but after a couple of weeks they'd be off to the races. You can even give them a per-layout bonus. We don't always do it - but when it is done it's by an experienced sign person (often myself, though even as few as 3 or 4 layouts a day can chew up 10 or 15 minutes each and my time is worth more than that).

I think it's something that can be done a few times for a client N/C to show them how, after that they should be able to do it or be willing to pay a small fee - though $100 woudl be way too much. Something in the range of $10~$25 I would think is more appropriate.

If they're a gravy customer, you smile and do it. We're more of a value-added company anyways, as we often assemble the modules in strings as per the layout, saving the sign co from having to measure, cut, splice. Lead time is longer if they want this service, but we have to solder them anyways, so it's one way to bring in business by offering more than other suppliers.

Edited August 14, 2008 by YYZ

[Erik Sine]

There is also software like Neon/LED Wizard which can help out.

[manuellynch]

There is also software like Neon/LED Wizard which can help out.

I agree - and our modules are listed in the software. Dont you think sign companies should do their own layout since they are the ones selling the sign to the end customer?

[Erik Sine]

I agree - and our modules are listed in the software. Dont you think sign companies should do their own layout since they are the ones selling the sign to the end customer?

For the end result yes.

[geraldi]

Where have I been? I didn't know you guy's would do this. Think I'll stop doing it mayself.

[Batch]

I was going to ask about this anyway. When the company buys LEDs it has done so most often lately from Sloan. We seem to have to always squeeze the wire linking the LEDs. The LEDs will be wired at some distance and spec-ed out at a closer distance. Why?

[manuellynch]

Where have I been? I didn't know you guy's would do this. Think I'll stop doing it mayself.

Funny. And I hear that Permlight will cut out your letter backs to and build the replacement CHASE signs for you.

[manuellynch]

I was going to ask about this anyway. When the company buys LEDs it has done so most often lately from Sloan. We seem to have to always squeeze the wire linking the LEDs. The LEDs will be wired at some distance and spec-ed out at a closer distance. Why?

It would be nice if Sloan would respond to this - but I doubt they ever would - we always recommend using our modules as already spaced.

Two national sign companies stated that Sloan layouts usually specify 1.5X more modules than are actually needed.

So how about I try this - instead of paying $3.25 for our module I think you should pay $4.87 or 1.5X the price...what do you think???? Haha

[YYZ]

I was going to ask about this anyway. When the company buys LEDs it has done so most often lately from Sloan. We seem to have to always squeeze the wire linking the LEDs. The LEDs will be wired at some distance and spec-ed out at a closer distance. Why?

I can't speak for Sloan, but the reason WE do this is because it's better to have more wire than not enough. Imagine the modules you're putting into a letter have short little 2" or 3" wires. This is great if your letters are all I's or L's, but what about when you have to do an H, X or T? The fact is you often need to be able to double-back, round a corner, jump over to start a parallel stroke that is 4" away (etc) and wires that are too short make this difficult. If you can't stretch out a single run properly, then you should at least enough wire to cut and splice with enough slack - your knuckles and fingernails will appreciate this - especially if you're up in a bucket truck on a cold day. Say you buy modules on a reel and need to mix and match some quantity into a letter - have you ever tried connecting 2 modules that each had a 1" lead on them, yet needed to be 3" apart?

In short, the extra 3 cents in wire should not be something that an LED supplier should skimp on. I know it's sometimes difficult tucking the wires into really small letters, but the added wire does help more than it hurts.

[Travis]

I can tell you from personal experience to get a layout from Sloan tends to take quite a few days which when it comes time to install the LED's I generally done have the time to spare.

I think for the most part it is a no brainer that at the very least the LED's should be layed out just like neon lays out. However when there is a wide open space that is being lit it may be a waste of product to lay out like neon if the LED's (whatever brand) are as bright as they are advertised. So I would think a provided layout pattern or even the LED company stating this LED will cover such a radius for a 5" deep cabinet. I think it would very much worth it for the LED company to offer these services as these first impressions of using a product may determine whether Sloan, GE, Axiom, etc. become the product of choice. Not to mention after the first few projects with a produce we tend to learn the in's and out's of the product requiring less and less assistance from the LED company.

[Brian]

I can't speak for Sloan, but the reason WE do this is because it's better to have more wire than not enough. Imagine the modules you're putting into a letter have short little 2" or 3" wires. This is great if your letters are all I's or L's, but what about when you have to do an H, X or T? The fact is you often need to be able to double-back, round a corner, jump over to start a parallel stroke that is 4" away (etc) and wires that are too short make this difficult. If you can't stretch out a single run properly, then you should at least enough wire to cut and splice with enough slack - your knuckles and fingernails will appreciate this - especially if you're up in a bucket truck on a cold day. Say you buy modules on a reel and need to mix and match some quantity into a letter - have you ever tried connecting 2 modules that each had a 1" lead on them, yet needed to be 3" apart?

In short, the extra 3 cents in wire should not be something that an LED supplier should skimp on. I know it's sometimes difficult tucking the wires into really small letters, but the added wire does help more than it hurts.

that's right that extra wire is nice sometimes

[manuellynch]

in some places (India, Las Vegas, etc) extra wire is sometimes a problem - especially when theives are ripping off any wire they can find to recycle it for money for drugs!

I heard the most ridiculuos story the other day - a guy ripped the LED modules out of a sign to take the wire to be recycled...I thought - why not resell the LED modules!!!

[Brian]

in some places (India, Las Vegas, etc) extra wire is sometimes a problem - especially when theives are ripping off any wire they can find to recycle it for money for drugs!

I heard the most ridiculuos story the other day - a guy ripped the LED modules out of a sign to take the wire to be recycled...I thought - why not resell the LED modules!!!

no that's a dumb criminal!!!!

[Erik Sine]

no that's a dumb criminal!!!!

Even dumber and I need to find the article, is the dummy who decided to steal the copper wire that ran from a building rooftop to the power pole and became a burned cookie

[YYZ]

It happens in every city - people getting fried and/or killed by high voltage wiring that they are trying to steal. If they could read a damn paper once in a while they would learn how stupid and risky it is. One dipshit got pinned under the bronze statue they were stealing... last year on in the mid-west US IIRC.