Honesty in Sign Industry Trade Magazine Articles

[Erik Sine]

I happened to finally take the time to read a couple of the popular trade magazines over this weekend that have been sitting on my desk collecting dust, this months and past issues.

More recent articles published in our industry trade magazines only give The Great White Hope Project (which has been running for 9 months now)more legitimate fire power about reality and illusion. So far The Great White Hope is the only standard and demonstrating to all just how hollow and empty some light source manufacturers marketing claims can be, not only with manufacturers, but with sign companies themselves who use them. But it doesn't stop there....

What happened to the editors job of checking facts?

Gone long ago is honest journalism, here to stay is infomercialism to the extreme where marketing/advertising and industry journalism meet hand in hand.

Anyone who follows the white Neon & LED comparison, The Great White Hope Project will have a very basic understanding on basic brightness & power consumption of most widely used products. We all know what also basic changes in alternative acrylic face lenses will do too (Specialty LED lenses), beside the industry standard of #7328 whites. Clearly!

Let's look at the newest and latest goofs of magazines articles from Signs Of The Times, June issue "Strictly Electric, The Cobbler Gets Shoes". For this I'd like to get some of our members who are in Cincinnati to take a drive by of this building and confirm the article pictures taken. I don't need verification, and neither do members who follow The Great White Hope. We all know the brightness and power consumption of Sloan's Great White 2 product. But it would be nice to get some feedback from someone who can do a drive by. I also do know what a overexposed night shot of a sign looks like. If you take a close look at the picture showing the sign at night, clearly you see the gray haze of overexposure. The idea of overexposing the shot to the point of these LED's punching through 1/4" white poly-carbonate where it looks like a channel letter more illuminated by a 15mm Tri-phsophor on a 60ma system lamp using a product like Satin Ice for a face is just ludicrous and plainly dishonest. Saving money in energy, really? If using per manufacturer specs 3.9 Foot Candles of surface light on 7328 white per watt is NOT efficient.

In Sign & Digital Graphics April Issue "LED Backlight Signage, A Growing Way To Light Up Your Sign" The Dental picture night shot, is clearly once again over exposure. Real white shots do not have a fuzzy appearance, nor is a real white from a lot of light sources ever appear to be a true white.

In Sign & Digital Graphics June Issue "LED Architectual Lighting, New On The Vegas Strip" We are taken to a article written about the new hotel "Aria" In this article there seems to be a lot of half truths mixed in. Sloan is used in this sign and the mention of "110 foot candles at a distance of three feet from the face. Really? With the face on the letters? Again we have overexpose shots at night even showing a bluish white glob. If the camera was more focused and a more accurate shot is used you would see just how this sign really looks. The only honesty I see in this article and may play a factor in the foot candle measurement is their admittance that they used too many modules to outweigh energy effiiency, but from our own study that would have to be a LOT, and I MEAN A LOT of modules used to get that measurement on the face let alone three feet away. I can't even get that measurement from The Great White Cabinet as a whole without the lens covers. Maybe Manuel can drive by this hotel and tell us what he see's in reality compared to this illustration shot. With hot temperature weather in Vegas, why would you use LEDs for channel letters anyway?

Some may think after reading this thread that i am picking on LED's, not true. There are some LED manufacturers that do and would perform to the industries highest standards and come close to what is trying to be illustrated in these articles, we have quite a few manufacturers in our project The Great White Hope. I'm just pointing out where advertising shakes journalism's hand, or where journalism stops being journalism.

Here is a sample teaser pic of cabinet one of The Great White Hope. Everything here is the manufacturers version of 6500 white, as you can see most are far from. Now I have to say to the eye, if you were to shut down all compartments except for anyone of these you see, they would appear to be white even thought you see colors from gray to purple. Without giving away any results here, I can tell you some of the LED's mentioned in the above articles are not as white as they are trying to be portrayed in fantasyland, compared to what you see here in Realityland. This shot is as close and accurate as you can get to real time.

The true whites of lighting (GWH Cabinet 1 October 2008)

If you are looking to buy or question a product, I would ask you to do a couple of things. Look at The Great White Hope for yourself. Ask your local LED/supplier reps if their products are in The Great White Hope, if not, ask "why not?". What was their reaction? You can always judge a company on how they stand behind THEIR product, every company should, if not then why are they trying to sell you their product if they themselves do not believe in it. The idea of the Great White hope is not in the Holy Grail Quest of finding the brightest white, because according to application their is none. Not one product out matches all others in in performance in all phases, or in variable applications. We just mainly want to ask the question that all sign builders ask, "what really works, and what does not", "what is hype, and what is not?", how much does this light source depreciate over time?. I think you should also note the light source manufacturers that chose and continue to not submit or participate in The Great White Comparison. What does this tell you? Any reputable & legitimate company with integrity would have no problem in participating in such a comparison as most have. Give those who Manufacturers who have a big hand!

The Sign Syndicate is the industries ONLY unbiased utility for all Electric Sign Builders & Component Manufacturer's. This is the only site where advertising does not sway decisions made here. Most importantly The Sign Syndicate is not owned and operated by any sign component manufacturer.

Okay, my rant is done.

[YYZ]

I can confirm that the Aria letters are in fact fairly bright.

If it's Sloan inside, then they likely over-saturated the cabinet with more modules than the Sloan spec calls for, but the sign looks nice.

[Erik Sine]

The article says they are way out of spec, but that defeats the purpose in my mind, especially with those numbers. Use something else and be more light and energy efficient for what you are paying, neon comes to mind for extreme heat applications. I'm sure the sign structure itself was impressive. But I'll be sure to visit this sign and take a shot with my SLR, I'd like to see what happens after the summer heat.

Unless of course the letters have AC. Why not just reroute some of those building AC pipes up to the letters huh?

[YYZ]

Unless of course the letters have AC. Why not just reroute some of those building AC pipes up to the letters huh?

For big letters way high up, that's actually a pretty good idea. Not sure how it works code-wise since the letters are external to the building's HVAC system which allows for full circulation, while channel letters are an enclosed space. Even tiny little 2" PVC hoses feeding cool air in/out of each letter would drastically improve life expectancy of any lighting system.

But you know how that would go over... some in the neon group would start whining about ow LEDs are so bad you need to run air conditioning into all your signs, just like some now complain you need special acrylic faces to make LEDs look brighter (never mind that those special faces were in the works well before LED and benefit neon too).

[fishing nut]

For big letters way high up, that's actually a pretty good idea. Not sure how it works code-wise since the letters are external to the building's HVAC system which allows for full circulation, while channel letters are an enclosed space. Even tiny little 2" PVC hoses feeding cool air in/out of each letter would drastically improve life expectancy of any lighting system.

But you know how that would go over... some in the neon group would start whining about ow LEDs are so bad you need to run air conditioning into all your signs, just like some now complain you need special acrylic faces to make LEDs look brighter (never mind that those special faces were in the works well before LED and benefit neon too).

I like the AC idea and I'm not whinning. I think many years ago there was a compny that tried putting small heaters in the letters. Personally I think a neon/LED letter would be neat. Neon in the warm and led in the cold. It can be controlled by a thermostat similar to the TFT octopus 30/60 system, (Manuel, I want a cut if you havent designed it already, HeHe) everyone wins. I guess it would be like haveing a wife and a girlfriend that get along and go shopping together. (oops, to much personal info)

Gary, sorry if I upset you in the other thread. I never intended on 20mm in a 12" letter, anything over 4ft definately and it doesnt have to be buttend welds just straight welds for the neon benders. and I was thinking globally as an industry

[YYZ]

Did you just propose the first hybrid system? Watch out man, GM will make you and your idea disappear.

[esimmons76]

Did you just propose the first hybrid system? Watch out man, GM will make you and your idea disappear.

I think GM has enough to worry about now....like keeping THEMSELVES from disappearing....

[Erik Sine]

GM = Government Motors

[YYZ]

I think GM has enough to worry about now....like keeping THEMSELVES from disappearing....

You could argue that one led to the other.

[fishing nut]

Did you just propose the first hybrid system? Watch out man, GM will make you and your idea disappear.

In print and dated.

Were you talking about the signs or the girls?

[imanut]

Upset me?? No, you're too good a friend to upset me. I just like fair comparisons ------ and fair opinions and what the usual neon bender is capable of --------- and working large mil glass isn't one of them.

And I would like to see your idea in production ---------- the one on the girls!!! Like have your "cake and eat it too" ??

gn

[Erik Sine]

I'm not a neon bender, but working in large diameter doesn't seem so out of the scope of the usual bender. I would think if you're a neon guy you should know pretty much just about all phases. Should a "good" neon guy know this? And not talking about some guy thrown from the vinyl department to the fires and called a neon guy.

Maybe we can add one for the second cabinet Sean, I have a spare CC 100ma Tech22

[fishing nut]

I'm not a neon bender, but working in large diameter doesn't seem so out of the scope of the usual bender. I would think if you're a neon guy you should know pretty much just about all phases. Should a "good" neon guy know this? And not talking about some guy thrown from the vinyl department to the fires and called a neon guy.

Maybe we can add one for the second cabinet Sean, I have a spare CC 100ma Tech22

Would you like 18 or 20mm. I'm sure Tom will send you down more for testing if need be.

[Erik Sine]

Send me both and I'll play around with them to see which might work best. I like the idea of the 20mm, but send both if you can.

[imanut]

I'm not a neon bender, but working in large diameter doesn't seem so out of the scope of the usual bender. I would think if you're a neon guy you should know pretty much just about all phases. Should a "good" neon guy know this? And not talking about some guy thrown from the vinyl department to the fires and called a neon guy.

Maybe we can add one for the second cabinet Sean, I have a spare CC 100ma Tech22

Throw large --- 18 - 22mil glass at a normal bender and see what comes out of the fires?? I mean look at the 15mil stuff that sucks. Takes more time, more heat, more control ---- and many were brought up on cold bending --------- and that's also why many have issues with lead free glass. If its ALL straight ----maybe? Heck just putting an 18mil trode on 22 mil glass in the fires is an issue ------------- unless just a hand torch is used--and that is iffy in itself.

But, maybe, the shops that I've visited were just sub-par ??? Heck, ever notice how many benders quit bending when a visitor pops in their shop ???

And as for putting it in the next cabinet ------ GREAT idea !!!

gn

Edited June 1, 2009 by Gary Nutting

[Erik Sine]

Throw large --- 18 - 22mil glass at a normal bender and see what comes out of the fires?? I mean look at the 15mil stuff that sucks. Takes more time, more heat, more control ---- and many were brought up on cold bending --------- and that's also why many have issues with lead free glass. If its ALL straight ----maybe? Heck just putting an 18mil trode on 22 mil glass in the fires is an issue ------------- unless just a hand torch is used--and that is iffy in itself.

But, maybe, the shops that I've visited were just sub-par ??? Heck, ever notice how many benders quit bending when a visitor pops in their shop ???

And as for putting it in the next cabinet ------ GREAT idea !!!

gn

Interesting.

It might be shops you've visited. Just about every glass bender here has done a bunch of Cold Cathode lighting, not just the straight stuff either. But if you're talking about making a 18" channel letter with it I see your point. But I figure for big letters 6' and above you seem to be dealing with more grid and simple bends, which is how I was reading Sean.

Everyone better get used to the lead free, Leads going to be phased out soon. Get your fires nice and hot!

How come I don't have a smiley bending neon? Hmmmm

One again we're so off thread (*sign*)

[imanut]

Interesting.

It might be shops you've visited. Just about every glass bender here has done a bunch of Cold Cathode lighting, not just the straight stuff either. But if you're talking about making a 18" channel letter with it I see your point. But I figure for big letters 6' and above you seem to be dealing with more grid and simple bends, which is how I was reading Sean.

Everyone better get used to the lead free, Leads going to be phased out soon. Get your fires nice and hot!

How come I don't have a smiley bending neon? Hmmmm

One again we're so off thread (*sign*)

One reference said Osram is done with lead by the end of year.

gn

[signeye]

Throw large --- 18 - 22mil glass at a normal bender and see what comes out of the fires?? I mean look at the 15mil stuff that sucks. Takes more time, more heat, more control ---- and many were brought up on cold bending --------- and that's also why many have issues with lead free glass. If its ALL straight ----maybe? Heck just putting an 18mil trode on 22 mil glass in the fires is an issue ------------- unless just a hand torch is used--and that is iffy in itself.

But, maybe, the shops that I've visited were just sub-par ??? Heck, ever notice how many benders quit bending when a visitor pops in their shop ???

And as for putting it in the next cabinet ------ GREAT idea !!!

gn

I agree with Gary, there is a ton of crap CC out there. Most neon benders go to school and learn how to bend 8mm, so when they get 20 or 25mm in thier hands they don't have a clue. Maybe its a midwest thing. Ever since Whiteway has stopped with its corner the market approach to signs with cold cathode instead of standard tubes in the Chicago market there isn't as much need for it around here...Time is money in the tube room and like Gary said you better be damn patient...

[signeye]

One reference said Osram is done with lead by the end of year.

gn

C'mon, you love bending soda glass!

[imanut]

C'mon, you love bending soda glass!

I'm sure you know that soda glass and lead free aren't the same things -----------. Soda glass is a completely different critter -- different fires, different techniques, alot more glass thrown against the wall --------------

[signeye]

I'm sure you know that soda glass and lead free aren't the same things -----------. Soda glass is a completely different critter -- different fires, different techniques, alot more glass thrown against the wall --------------

Knew a couple of guys who tried to play with it. Europeans use it more I was told, not sure that is true though. The first supplier I worked for had it on the shelf for some reason. He was an old Motorola engineer and had all knids of crazy stuff on the shelf.

Edited June 2, 2009 by signeye

[Erik Sine]

I can confirm that the Aria letters are in fact fairly bright.

If it's Sloan inside, then they likely over-saturated the cabinet with more modules than the Sloan spec calls for, but the sign looks nice.

Do my eyes deceive me? Maybe I had too many drinks with Kgirl lastnight? But I could have sworn I saw exposed neon for the Aria sign?

[saneon]

I am with Sean. An 18 or 20mm lamp with beefed up electrodes would last longer than the sign that it is contained in and would be efficient as hell. As for the large diameter tubing being to difficult to work with, I think this industry has too many unqualified hacks that produce inferior lamps and care very little about the damage they are doing to an entire industry.

There are good cathode craftsmen out there that are passionate about their trade ,you just have to find them.

[Erik Sine]

So, does anyone know if the Aria signs got changed? Nice interior signs

[YYZ]

So, does anyone know if the Aria signs got changed? Nice interior signs

Not sure what you mean by changed - you mean the 60th floor exterior channel letters?

The interiors were always that nice. Did you go to Vegas against recently Erik?