UL Listed vs UL Recognized

Camelot Sign · July 22, 2009

I just had a rather strange phone call concerning UL Listed and UL Recognized components. A sign shop is building a large cabinet sign and is using HID to illuminate it. They called asking if the France HID Sign Bright product was listed or recognized. It happens to be a recognized component. They then informed me that they couldn't use it because they were told by their UL inspector that all components used in the cabinet sign had to be listed and that recognized components wouldn't make it. I asked if they were a UL shop and if the end sign was going to have a UL sticker on it and the response was yes they are a UL shop and it would have a sticker.

I thought that recognized components were ok to use in a finished UL sign. Am I wrong in this? This is the first time I've had this one asked just wanted to bounce it off folks here especially the UL folks lurking around.

Dave

TelfordDorr · July 22, 2009

My understanding is that a 'listed' component is usable by itself, while a 'recognized' component is only usable within a larger 'listed' device. Put another way, a 'listed' device is built from 'recognized' components.

FWIW

eng0270 · July 22, 2009

I just had a rather strange phone call concerning UL Listed and UL Recognized components. A sign shop is building a large cabinet sign and is using HID to illuminate it. They called asking if the France HID Sign Bright product was listed or recognized. It happens to be a recognized component. They then informed me that they couldn't use it because they were told by their UL inspector that all components used in the cabinet sign had to be listed and that recognized components wouldn't make it. I asked if they were a UL shop and if the end sign was going to have a UL sticker on it and the response was yes they are a UL shop and it would have a sticker.
I thought that recognized components were ok to use in a finished UL sign. Am I wrong in this? This is the first time I've had this one asked just wanted to bounce it off folks here especially the UL folks lurking around.

Dave

I'm willing to bet what they were told was you can not install a UL Recognized Component in the sign unless it is in the SAM manual and installed within the conditions of use listed. An updated version of the SAM manual was just issued this week by UL, the manual has a revision date of July 23, 2009. The France HID unit was not in the last issue of the SAM manual but has been added to the most recent addition. (I've attached a screen shot for you to reference) Depending on when the inspection was ... the inspector may have referenced the old SAM.

Erik Sine · July 22, 2009

I'm willing to bet what they were told was you can not install a UL Recognized Component in the sign unless it is in the SAM manual and installed within the conditions of use listed. An updated version of the SAM manual was just issued this week by UL, the manual has a revision date of July 23, 2009. The France HID unit was not in the last issue of the SAM manual but has been added to the most recent addition. (I've attached a screen shot for you to reference) Depending on when the inspection was ... the inspector may have referenced the old SAM.

This happened to me. There is a typical brand that I use for poly-carb tube supports "Clear Vue" I think they were called. They didn't keep current with their UL listing (SAM Manual) so I was told no by UL

Camelot Sign · July 22, 2009

I'm willing to bet what they were told was you can not install a UL Recognized Component in the sign unless it is in the SAM manual and installed within the conditions of use listed. An updated version of the SAM manual was just issued this week by UL, the manual has a revision date of July 23, 2009. The France HID unit was not in the last issue of the SAM manual but has been added to the most recent addition. (I've attached a screen shot for you to reference) Depending on when the inspection was ... the inspector may have referenced the old SAM.

They mentioned that this had happened to them with a previous sign and what you said here may be just what happened. They hadn't built the sign yet and were checking to make sure they wouldn't have to re-build the sign later. My advice to them was to get in touch with their UL inspector or someone at UL in advance to make sure what they wanted to use was ok. they had said that the UL inspector told them the only thing they could use in the sign was a listed HID ballast. Not necessarily the France Sign Bright but any other ballast that was only recognized. That kind of limits the choices and is something that I didn't quite understand.

If a component is recognized and in the SAM manual it should be able to be used in a listed sign. A listed component can also be used in a listed sign but can also stand on its own. You don't necessarily have to use a listed component in a listed sign. That is the way I understand it.

Erik Sine · July 22, 2009

I would PM Jim Richards of U.L. who is a member here. He is the on who told me about SAM listing issue of the tube supports I was about to use and just assuming it was okay because they had the UL recognized stamp on them it was okay to use.

MET Southeast · July 22, 2009

They then informed me that they couldn't use it because they were told by their UL inspector that all components used in the cabinet sign had to be listed and that recognized components wouldn't make it....
...I thought that recognized components were ok to use in a finished UL sign. Am I wrong in this? This is the first time I've had this one asked just wanted to bounce it off folks here especially the UL folks lurking around.

Dave

Dave,

There must be something missing. If the UL inspector really said that all of the components in a cabinet sign had to be listed and that recognized components just wouldn’t make it, that’s curious to me.

Product recognitions usually apply to products that are not a stand alone piece of equipment. They are components of a larger end product. These components are evaluated to the standard that applies to that component. Once the component is used in a larger product, the overall product is then review to the most applicable standard for it. For example if we look at a hand held drill, there is an electric motor inside that drives the bit. The motor is a recognized component and could be certified to UL1004 (Electric Motors). With recognized components, there are conditions of acceptability or considerations that must be reviewed depending on how the component is being used or what type of end product it is being installed in. The hand held drill once assembled would then be listed to UL745-1 (Portable Electric Tools) and UL745-2-1 (Particular Requirements for Drills).

Recognized Components are intended for factory installation in end-product or equipment where the limitations of use are known to the end-product manufacturer and where their use is within such limitations as evaluated by UL. The conditions of acceptability of the recognized component need to be compatible with the specific end product application.

TelfordDorr is exactly correct in his statement. I think eng0270’s assessment is probably right, it probably wasn’t the fact that the component was only recognized, it was that it wasn’t in the SAM.

Phil

Camelot Sign · July 23, 2009

Thanks for all of the reponses. I kind of figured there is more to the story than I was being told over the phone. At least I know we are all on the same page as to listed and recognized. That sign shop, by the way, has been taken care of and they are contacting their UL inspector to make sure everything is ok.