Does this make sense at all?

[manuellynch]

Axiom NZ offers its new www.AxiomLED.com/axle7/ product with a 5 year warranty and it can be used with ANY CLASS 2 12VDC POWER SUPPLY...ANY

We appreciate that people either want to:

1) Use a power supply they like

2) Dont want to pay shipping fees for a power supply and want the distributor to deliver

3) They like Advance Transformer power supplies for example

So we thought it was fair and reasonable to offer our LED modules to be used with ANY 12VDC power supply. We thought that LED companies would not mind us promoting our selling people on using their power supplies.

Probably very similar to fluorescent - cabinet sign may have an Advance Transformer Ballast and a GE Fluorescent Tube...or maybe you swap it out with a Sylvania tube.

Hell...or even in 12V halogen landscape lighting - do we ever really think about or try to "match" the halogen bulb to the transformer...um...well...NO!!!

So we heard froma sizeable customer that SloanLED says that people cannot use their power supply with our LED system? Is that nuts? Does that make any sense whatsoever????

GE, Permlight, Advance Transformer, and even Meanwell (the company that has made power supplies for Sloan before)...none of them have a problem.

I will make sure I never use "HONDA" tires when I have to change the tires on my car!!!!

12VDC Class 2 is just that...a standard part. I cannot possibly understand how an LED system could "hurt" the Sloan power supply.

Very amusing.

Would love people's opinion on Sloan "not approving".

[Phunkybones]

Sloan has said this exact same thing to me about SuperVision Leds.................and I believed it till I had to swap out one in a pinch. No problem. It sounds political to me for some reason????????

[geraldi]

I'm no electrical engineer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night and 12 volts dc is 12 volts dc. As long as you size them correctly, they'll never know the difference.................

[signeye]

I'm no electrical engineer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night and 12 volts dc is 12 volts dc. As long as you size them correctly, they'll never know the difference.................

Edited October 12, 2009 by signeye

[manuellynch]

I thought Sloan LED systems were designed to handle 12VDC input and make it constant current? Most intelligently designed constant current drivers could handle anything output from a Class 2 UL approved 12VDC power supply.

I didnt know politics had to do with 12VDC... is Obama involved in something else new????

[Digital1]

A 12 VDC power supply with a maximum of 60 Watts for Class 2 could technically be used with any load that is rated under 60 watts for constant voltage 12 VDC including LEDs.

Some LED manufacturers have UL listed their products as systems meaning power supply and lights together. this being the case, neither their power supply could be used with other lights and be UL listed nor their lights could be used with another power supply and be UL listed.

This is an unwise way to list and it limits the product's marketability.

[manuellynch]

A 12 VDC power supply with a maximum of 60 Watts for Class 2 could technically be used with any load that is rated under 60 watts for constant voltage 12 VDC including LEDs.

Some LED manufacturers have UL listed their products as systems meaning power supply and lights together. this being the case, neither their power supply could be used with other lights and be UL listed nor their lights could be used with another power supply and be UL listed.

This is an unwise way to list and it limits the product's marketability.

I think it would be great for UL to chime in on this. It is my understanding that according to UL a sign company that is UL48 could use ANY Class 2 UL Recognized power supply with any UL Recognized LED module.

I dont think what you said above is correct "neither their power supply could be used with other lights and be UL listed nor their lights could be used with another power supply and be UL listed" but I will check with UL and have them comment.

[YYZ]

I think it would be great for UL to chime in on this. It is my understanding that according to UL a sign company that is UL48 could use ANY Class 2 UL Recognized power supply with any UL Recognized LED module.

I dont think what you said above is correct "neither their power supply could be used with other lights and be UL listed nor their lights could be used with another power supply and be UL listed" but I will check with UL and have them comment.

Recognized being the key word - which is different from Listed or Classified.

Having very recently jumped over all these hurdles - it really does depend on how the company chooses to be listed. If your system is "UL Classified" it is supposed to be used as a complete system - with the exact modules, lead wires and power supplies that were provided for testing and approved in the system. Sloan's modules may only be approved for use with their own power supplies, as per their listing type.

We chose to go "UL Recognized" which allows our LEDs to be used with any UL approved Class 2 power supply that meets the specs of the product.

That said - UL apparently does allow mixing and matching as they recognize that 12V systems will generally have the same specs and limits if they were originally approved as sign components. Some products were originally listed in the SAM even if they were not sign components, but under cabinet lights, display or amusement lights, etc... which was allowed under UL48, but also allowed the products to be used for kitchen lighting, accent lighting, etc... but in those cases had to be used with the power supply they were listed with. UL48 has been superseded by ANSI/UL 879, which no longer includes products specifically designed for use in places other than signs (portable lights, landscape, etc...)

[Camelot Sign]

I have had the oportunity to used different 12VDC power supplies with different LED brands and as long as the output is not over loaded they have worked just fine. I have heard that if you don't use the power supply some manufacturers recommend or supply with their LED's they will NOT warranty the LED's. In my experience 12VDC is 12VDC and 60 watts is still 60 watts.

Dave

[UL Jim]

To start with there are two basic types of LED Drivers or power supplies. They are constant voltage and constant current. Constant voltage is the common power supply that most have been familiar with since they are used in most appliances and computer applications. However, the LED industry has been turning to Constant Current LED Drivers for optimum LED performance. Constant current is how neon power supplies, fluorescent ballasts and HID ballasts are designed.

In the first one, constant voltage, the circuitry is designed to maintain the same output voltage, for example 12 V dc. This voltage level will be maintained up to a point where the load is too great which results in greater current and less voltage. However, as long as the output current is rated or less, the output will stay at rated.

The second one, constant current, the circuitry is where the current is set for a value and regardless of the load, the output will adjust to stay at that current. For LEDs, the most common current levels are 350 ma and 700 ma since these are the most common current ratings for LEDs. As the number of LEDs added to the output increases, the voltage goes up to maintain the same current rating. However, the voltage limit can reach the maximum and adding more LEDs can result in less current output unless a protective device trips.

Both of these types of LED drivers can be used interchangeable with LEDs, but not for the same LED load. For Class 2 LEDs, the load for each type will likely be different so this will have to be adjusted as needed to meet the rated output.

As to LED Recognition and LED drivers the LED modules and the LED Driver are interchangeable. Class 2 LED Drivers are tested separately from Class 2 LED modules as individual components. They are not required to be evaluated by UL together as a system. In fact, there are many manufacturers of LED modules that are UL Recognized for use on a Class 2 circuit and the manufacturer neither makes a LED driver for them or provides one.

For a Class 2 Constant Voltage LED driver - As long as number of LEDs does not cause the current rating of the LED driver to be exceeded, it is acceptable for powering any Class 2 LED modules.

For a Class 2 Constant Current LED driver - As long as the current rating of the LEDs matches the current output of the LED driver and does not cause the rated voltage to be exceeded due to too much load, it is acceptable for powering any Class 2 LED Modules.

As to Classification, this is only applied where a retrofit of an existing sign is involved. This covers a combination of LED Driver and LED modules with installation instructions on how to remove what is in a channel letter and replace it with LED drivers and Modules. The individual components are still Recognized individually. UL Classifies this combination rather than Listing it because there is no audit of how well the installer followed directions in retrofitting the sign. So we qualify the product as related to the effectiveness of the installation. Many manufacturers place the Classification Mark on their power supply for when it is used in for the retrofit Classification, but it is not exclusive. There are manufacturers who obtain LED Drivers and LED Modules from others and package them with installation instructions and as long as the instructions are correct, UL will extend Classification to the Retrofit Kit.

[manuellynch]

To start with ...

thank you for the detailed response and clarification Jim. If someone is replacing fluorescent in a sign in the field with our LED systems - while they should be Classified and use both our power supply and our LED systme - can they use our LED system and ANY LED driver that is UL Recognized to be used with our LED system? Just wanted to make sure this applies to replacing one technology with another.

[UL Jim]

A company that put together a Classified retrofit kit can use any combination of LED module and LED driver by any manufacturer. We do check to make sure the LED modules are not being driven by an LED driver that has an output that exceeds the Class 2 limits. Under Classification, should a manufacturer want to change from their own LED driver to an LED Driver by another manufacturer, they can. We will document the change and no testing is required.

[LiteGirl]

Thank you for clarifying that Jim, that cloud of uncertainty has been looming in our office.