When do you start worrying?

[manuellynch]

As a sign company, when, if ever, do you worry about using products that might infringe intellectual property owned by a patent holder?

Has it become just "accepted" to use products that violate patents?

Do you worry that you may lose your end customer, the retail store, if they are sued by the patent holder for using patent infringing product?

I know everyone is trying to save money and be more competitive - but when does it become reality that buying cheap knock off products has its cost? - which may mean you could ultimately lose your end customer.

And, does anybody have a clue what it normally cost to fight and defend a patent litigation suit? I, unfortunately, have a ton of experience in how much it cost everyone as I was involved with lawsuits against GE, SloanLED, US LED, ElectraLED...and the list goes on.

Is the general sentiment on this issue - I am concerned about this, or I am not concerned about this..... PLEASE VOTE.

[UFB Fabrication]

As a sign company, when, if ever, do you worry about using products that might infringe intellectual property owned by a patent holder?

Has it become just "accepted" to use products that violate patents?

Do you worry that you may lose your end customer, the retail store, if they are sued by the patent holder for using patent infringing product?

I know everyone is trying to save money and be more competitive - but when does it become reality that buying cheap knock off products has its cost? - which may mean you could ultimately lose your end customer.

And, does anybody have a clue what it normally cost to fight and defend a patent litigation suit? I, unfortunately, have a ton of experience in how much it cost everyone as I was involved with lawsuits against GE, SloanLED, US LED, ElectraLED...and the list goes on.

Is the general sentiment on this issue - I am concerned about this, or I am not concerned about this..... PLEASE VOTE.

I am not really sure what you are asking. Are you stating that the use of say a product such as GE or Sloan LED's are not patented or may be in violation of patent law. I assume that if that was true and they did violate that you are sending this from your yacht in the tropics. If I am missing something how about a example

[manuellynch]

As a sign company, when, if ever, do you worry about using products that might infringe intellectual property owned by a patent holder?

Has it become just "accepted" to use products that violate patents?

Do you worry that you may lose your end customer, the retail store, if they are sued by the patent holder for using patent infringing product?

I know everyone is trying to save money and be more competitive - but when does it become reality that buying cheap knock off products has its cost? - which may mean you could ultimately lose your end customer.

And, does anybody have a clue what it normally cost to fight and defend a patent litigation suit? I, unfortunately, have a ton of experience in how much it cost everyone as I was involved with lawsuits against GE, SloanLED, US LED, ElectraLED...and the list goes on.

Is the general sentiment on this issue - I am concerned about this, or I am not concerned about this..... PLEASE VOTE.

I am not really sure what you are asking. Are you stating that the use of say a product such as GE or Sloan LED's are not patented or may be in violation of patent law. I assume that if that was true and they did violate that you are sending this from your yacht in the tropics. If I am missing something how about a example

No, Sloan and GE are good companies and doing things right - I personally have a lot of respect for both of them.. There are others that make some of us wonder if sign companies have a clue about what it could cost them by using knock off products.

[fishing nut]

Hello all, been out of the loop for a while but back now.

You have a very good topic but I think it may go a little deeper than that. If a manufacturer sells a product that they nowingly are infringing on a patent, I dont think the end user is liable. What is of more concern is breaking spec with inferior products or its on the shelf mentality or even its cheaper and I dont care how long it lasts.

What do you think the ramafications should be if a sign shop is doing a national account , reffered project or even an art piece that a manufacturer worked on the specification for months maybe even a year and then the product salesman visits and the specifications are broken. be it power supply, fixtures brand of lamps ect.

I think that is a bigger issue than patent infringment.

Honestly when I have confronted customers about this the reaction I get is "oh well, you caught me" or "I didnt want to by more because I had this already" or even a better one was " this is so much cheaper and this is the oly way I was able to get the job" These comments are from large well known reputable shops. I personally think copy right infringement is the last thing on thier mind unless they are phisically doing the infringement and marketing the product as thier own private label.

[UFB Fabrication]

As a sign company, when, if ever, do you worry about using products that might infringe intellectual property owned by a patent holder?

Has it become just "accepted" to use products that violate patents?

Do you worry that you may lose your end customer, the retail store, if they are sued by the patent holder for using patent infringing product?

I know everyone is trying to save money and be more competitive - but when does it become reality that buying cheap knock off products has its cost? - which may mean you could ultimately lose your end customer.

And, does anybody have a clue what it normally cost to fight and defend a patent litigation suit? I, unfortunately, have a ton of experience in how much it cost everyone as I was involved with lawsuits against GE, SloanLED, US LED, ElectraLED...and the list goes on.

Is the general sentiment on this issue - I am concerned about this, or I am not concerned about this..... PLEASE VOTE.

I am not really sure what you are asking. Are you stating that the use of say a product such as GE or Sloan LED's are not patented or may be in violation of patent law. I assume that if that was true and they did violate that you are sending this from your yacht in the tropics. If I am missing something how about a example

No, Sloan and GE are good companies and doing things right - I personally have a lot of respect for both of them.. There are others that make some of us wonder if sign companies have a clue about what it could cost them by using knock off products.

We use 99% Sloan or GE for the stuff we sell because thats what the buyer specs. I have tried some others. Can you be specific about someone infringing on a patent ? I think a bigger liability would be for the sign supply houses selling that stuff. Without names or proof this thread comes off a little whinney to me.

[geraldi]

I don't see small shops loosing any sleep over it. Lets see, I can worry about Patent Infringement, or, I can go buy some beer and a bag of weed.

If you build for National companies and have a lot of stuff out there that pops up being involved in a suit, that may cause some lost sleep.

Edited February 26, 2010 by geraldi

[manuellynch]

I don't see small shops loosing any sleep over it. Lets see, I can worry about Patent Infringement, or, I can go buy some beer and a bag of weed.

If you build for National companies and have a lot of stuff out there that pops up being involved in a suit, that may cause some lost sleep.

There are several Chinese LED companies that are very good at bypassing patents - and some distributors that are making a profit carrying them.

So here is a toast to small companies - keep low profile and you are probably right - they probably wont come after you. But then again, some of the distributors are the big fish - so if they get stopped do you start buying from the Chinese guy with their minimum orders?

Companies that are always curious to me are Agilight (for products not using patented Nichia products - which I still think they are selling), JT LED (they wont address the question and my understanding is that the owner is artful in attempting to dodge the International Trade Commission (ITC)), and JS LED - or the 20 or so derivatives thereof.

I guess what I am asking is in light of Toyota - one of the largest car companies in the world who had a stellar reputation for quality - is now being bashed because of a few quality issues. What will we do when the Chinese car lines start hitting the states in 1-2 years - get ready for all the danger and fun....didnt we have a tire company that had Chinese manufacturing that killed a lot of people in the USA? So what I am asking is when do we realize that integrity, patents, and ethics translate ultimately to quality, safety, and good value???

[YYZ]

We use top-tier LEDs because they represent the best quality - great output great reliability. The patent thing doesn't cross my mind because those suppliers wouldn't even be on our radar.

As far as sign shops go - it's increasingly becoming a low-dollar proposition. Even the bigger companies have a low a "low grade" alternate in cases when they'd rather not lose the work to some giveaway artist down the road who uses the $4 per foot junk. Those guys don't give a shit about patents, they just pray that the LEDs will last beyond the 1 year warranty they gave their client, further screwing their customer by charging them for new LEDs that they'll probably try to get replaced for free from the supplier (who never should have offered more than 6 months on the junk they sell to begin with).

The failure of these guys to warranty their products will sting enough people that they won't sell as much once companies begin to return to some financial comfort and can start using materials they can stand behind. My hope is that as things improve in the economy just as the companies have finished learning the hard way about buying the cheapest materials - they'll return to using more modestly priced, better quality products and stand behind their work.

If the economy wasn't in the state that it's in, I don't think it would be as big an issue. Companies wouldn't be scrounging for every job and doing it at the lowest cost possible just to keep their doors open.

As for Toyota - I think it's shameful what's being done to them. They've had an incredible quality and safety record for some time and this is an opportunity for their competitors - including the US government who is propping up GM and Chrysler - to take shots at them and weaken their reputation. A Toyota with a sticky accelerator is still a way better car than many of the American made equivalent models - many having their own safety recalls over the years without being dragged into the town square for their 20 lashes and public humiliation.

[manuellynch]

As for Toyota - I think it's shameful what's being done to them. They've had an incredible quality and safety record for some time and this is an opportunity for their competitors - including the US government who is propping up GM and Chrysler - to take shots at them and weaken their reputation. A Toyota with a sticky accelerator is still a way better car than many of the American made equivalent models - many having their own safety recalls over the years without being dragged into the town square for their 20 lashes and public humiliation.

Oh Marko we always violently agree. I am in France right now - you should see the Toyota IQ - new car, better gas mileage than any hybrid.

Also - isnt interesting that the Killer Whale will not be put down - after all he is a breeder and the US Companies that run that show would lose some profits. The double standards we have in the USA at times are odd.

On the LED comments - insightful on your part - appreciate your comments. Will call you when I cam back in the states. Hope that project you are working on is working out ok.

And yes, the LED chips you use are some of the best and the approach you use is the right way to go.

[Guest Signtiffic]

Manuel.... I'm curious how much your average cost have been to initiate something like this? I would assume it can be a considerable ammount and vary depending on the defendants cash flow and ability to defer, delay, and drag out litigation.

Would you mind sharing some round about numbers and what's worked/not worked for you?