Signs of The Times - November 2010 Issue

[Brian]

Very interesting article in this months SOT. Author says LED tubes aren't suitable for use where human beings are present for prolonged times.

Very interesting that he feels leds aren't ready to replace flo tubes in light output or energy savings yet.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Kgirl
Topic Title

[fishing nut]

Very interesting article in this months SOT. Author says LED tubes aren't suitable for use where human beings are present for prolonged times.

Very interesting that he feels leds aren't ready to replace flo tubes in light output or energy savings yet.

Interesting article

[Erik Sine]

Nov issue? Online link?

[Brian]

Nov issue? Online link?

Yep Nov issue

Link - Hell I don't know how to do that!! LOL

[YYZ]

I haven't received my email link to the online edition yet, so I haven't seen the article, but I do expect to find it an entirely predictable write-up.

It would be quite ironic if the article was taken at face value by everyone, though, considering the history that exists in attacking the source of other specious reports by people with a leaning towards one technology or another. I wouldn't trust Marcus Thielen to present the info in an unbiased way any more than say, GE about their energy savings, so I'm interested to see what LED products were hand picked to make his point.

[Erik Sine]

I doubt Marcus disclosed anything in his article, he never has. I don't think he's allowed too but after I read it I'll try and ask him. Hopefully he'll respond.

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[Brian]

No specific product brands were mentioned. Prob. can't make waves with big ad $$$$$$$$$$

Edited October 21, 2010 by chubbygumby

[fishing nut]

No specific product brands were mentioned. Prob. can't make waves with big ad $$$$$$$$$$

Correct, Marcus is not allowed to be product specific unlike other articles that have been written. He is not employeed by a manufacturer or "sign shop" Most importantly he has a scientific background that goes far beyond the sign industry, located in Europe (which is far advanced in R&D on conserving energy than North America & China is)and will not put anything into writting or talk about it in conversations if he is not 110% sure and researched and analized it over and over again.

I've known Marcus for about 15 years.

Marko said--""I wouldn't trust Marcus Thielen to present the info in an unbiased way any more than say, GE about their energy savings,""

Honestly Marko, That is a very absurb comment. GE is all about strong arming and media deception.

[Brian]

I've known Marcus for about 15 years.

Marko said--""I wouldn't trust Marcus Thielen to present the info in an unbiased way any more than say, GE about their energy savings,""

Honestly Marko, That is a very absurb comment. GE is all about strong arming and media deception.

,

From everything I have read or heard about him he is very knowledgeable (expert), not just some write about any topic journalist

I would be great to get him on here to discuss this more in depth (Hint Eric!)

[LiteGirl]

Can you elaborate on GE strong arming please?

[YYZ]

From everything I have read or heard about him he is very knowledgeable (expert), not just some write about any topic journalist

I don't disagree with this at all - Marcus is extremely knowledgeable about neon. He is not some trade magazine journalist that writes fluff at all, but he certainly does have a rather large body of work spanning many years that has gone out of its way to support neon.

I'm certain that he was very thorough with the product chosen and I'm certain the results came out the way he expected them to, otherwise he would not have submitted the article. I highly doubt anyone at the magazines would mistrust his detailed submission, or fact check his findings if they haven't bothered to do them with other material that has been discussed on here.

If no names are mentioned, how is anyone able to confirm or deny the findings? Convenient, no?

Does anyone have a link?

[Brian]

I think his findings on the efficiency of T8 lamps with electronic ballasts vs LED tube lamps in a retro fit closely match what has been found so far in other test like on here.

I really don't think he would risk his professional reputation to promote some hidden neon agenda or some anti LED conspiracy.

I think everyone should actually read the article and decide for themselves if they think Marcus purposely manipulated his tests for some hidden agenda or not.

Edited October 21, 2010 by chubbygumby

[YYZ]

I think his findings on the efficiency of T8 lamps with electronic ballasts vs LED tube lamps in a retro fit closely match what has been found so far in other test like on here.

What does that have to do with human comfort under LED light, though?

I can't make any more specific comments until I've had a chance to read the article, but it seems to me that someone is talking about apples and oranges. If it's strictly an efficiency thing then that's one thing, but to say that humans aren't comfortable under LED lights is something entirely separate and entirely dependent on the products being compared, and what questions were asked of people that led to this conclusion. If these details are not stated in the article, then how are any of us supposed to believe the findings?

I guess I'll have to pull up some of the studies myself, but there have been many where if the user was not told which light they were under, they often chose LEDs over sodium or halide (for high bay or outdoor) and LEDs over fluorescents for indoor and task lighting. Halogen and incandescent often win out for residential because of their warm tones, but that will generally depend on the products being compared as well. A lot of people really hate CCFL lamps in their homes because of the color, among other things.

[Brian]

I think his findings on the efficiency of T8 lamps with electronic ballasts vs LED tube lamps in a retro fit closely match what has been found so far in other test like on here.

What does that have to do with human comfort under LED light, though?

Nothing... but it is part of the article Marko

[TecnoluxMan]

Very interested in reading about this and I have not received my issue either yet>>>>>like anything else I'm sure there are pros and cons to be played in all lighting types even in this study >>>>this site has surely shown that to be true

[imanut]

There's only a couple people that I know where I'd take their word to the bank - Marcus Thielen is definitely one of them. I've known him a long time, spent considerable time with him - and first off he won't write any article just to write an article. Oftentimes my German scientist buddy - speaks way over my head, but he'll bring it down to basics. He is a noted scientist, a very noted neon person, is devoted to neon - which is why he no longers works at the University with his Phd and all the other initials after his name. If you ever got a chance to speak with him - he doesn't b.s. anything about anyone. In his eyes, its truly a black and white world out there. He and my old buddy Dirk Boonstra are two people - that with neon, leds, lighting, electricity - you've more than met your match.

[megavolt512]

ditton on Marcus. I've known him for 15 years, and he has been a great advocate of sound science with regards to any lighting system, not just neon. His data concerning LED light tubes is mostly taken right from the Dept. of Energy's Caliper testing program going on right now. While some LED products have slightly exceeded CFL's, the LED tube lights tested were dismal in quality and efficiency. I think every single model tested had a lower lumen/watt figure than claimed by the mfg. Someone else that has written for the magazine in the past told me Marcus was asked to remove a reference to the DOE testing in one of his articles a year or so ago. Look who's advertising in SOT - not that surprising.

The current issue of Signs of the Times is a joke. The cover article features the Baltimore Aquarium's replacement of neon with GE Contour LED strips. They claim it should reduce energy consumption by 70% over neon, and perform better. I'd love to see how they came up with these numbers.

From the GE website spec sheet on Tetra Contour http://www.gelighting.com/apo/products/lighting/led/downloads/TetraContourDataWEB1_08.pdf

Blue Contour with guide: 3.81 watts per foot. 19 lumens per foot. 7 lumens per watt.

Compare to EGL Horizon Blue, 15mm, 30ma:

3 watts per foot (with standard magnetic trannies), 80 lumens per foot, 26 lumens per watt.

Last time I priced Contour, it was around 5x the cost of neon.

[Brian]

There's only a couple people that I know where I'd take their word to the bank - Marcus Thielen is definitely one of them. I've known him a long time, spent considerable time with him - and first off he won't write any article just to write an article. Oftentimes my German scientist buddy - speaks way over my head, but he'll bring it down to basics. He is a noted scientist, a very noted neon person, is devoted to neon - which is why he no longers works at the University with his Phd and all the other initials after his name. If you ever got a chance to speak with him - he doesn't b.s. anything about anyone. In his eyes, its truly a black and white world out there. He and my old buddy Dirk Boonstra are two people - that with neon, leds, lighting, electricity - you've more than met your match.

So you are saying Marcus does not have a anti LED agenda that he would write mis-truths to promote? LOL!!!

Thanks for the input Gary

[Erik Sine]

GE is probably THE main LED company still advertising their products like TertaMAX as saving 80% over neon, unfortunately for them they are comparing a flashlight to a searchlight and telling everyone they have HUGE saving, well duh? Of course you save 80%, it's nowhere NEAR the same light output. You save 80% in energy for 400% less light.

I heard about this article too, I'd like to dive deeper into it later.

[megavolt512]

GE is probably THE main LED company still advertising their products like TertaMAX as saving 80% over neon, unfortunately for them they are comparing a flashlight to a searchlight and telling everyone they have HUGE saving, well duh? Of course you save 80%, it's nowhere NEAR the same light output. You save 80% in energy for 400% less light.

I heard about this article too, I'd like to dive deeper into it later.

Well, at least according to their spec sheet, you actually use MORE energy... regardless of light output.

The red-orange Contour offers a very slight improvement over red neon (3.24 watts on the Contour vs. 3.6 watts for red neon). However red neon is a very long life product with near 100-percent lumen maint.

[Erik Sine]

Chances are they are still using 60 ma red neon gas pumped lamps for all their comparisons, so in affect they are right......"from a certain point of view" -obi wan kenobi

Hahaha

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[manuellynch]

The article he wrote about the LED tubes currently on the market is true.

The CRI, light output distribution, high Kelvin temp used by Chinese Manufacturers, and method for driving the LEDs that causes flickering at different frequencies is causing discomfort

We have several major conversions that have been done that are showing me that Nichia has something - the right phosphors!

I agree with his article and the report - LED tubes are not there yet...and is why we don't make one...yet!!!

Would be great to have someone like Marcus on this board - I like smart educators- like Jim Richards from UL - miss him

My summary LED tubes not there yet - but they will be in time. No different than any new promising technology

[imanut]

I contacted Marcus - seems that in his area in Germany, his internet is still slow dial up, with an emphasis on SLOW, and he's charged long distance charges for the minutes he uses. So, he's not available to join and participate in this forum.

[Brian]

The article he wrote about the LED tubes currently on the market is true.

The CRI, light output distribution, high Kelvin temp used by Chinese Manufacturers, and method for driving the LEDs that causes flickering at different frequencies is causing discomfort

We have several major conversions that have been done that are showing me that Nichia has something - the right phosphors!

I agree with his article and the report - LED tubes are not there yet...and is why we don't make one...yet!!!

Would be great to have someone like Marcus on this board - I like smart educators- like Jim Richards from UL - miss him

My summary LED tubes not there yet - but they will be in time. No different than any new promising technology

I appreciate your honesty on this topic Manuel! Thanks!

[manuellynch]

I just cane back from London where someone was trying to tell me that a 4ft Osram LED tube at 1200 lumens was same as T8- ummmm the lights must be really dim!!!

Until LED tubes can be over 2000 lumens and sell for under $40 a tube - it doesn't make sense