Honesty in Sign Industry Trade Magazine Articles, Part II

[Erik Sine]

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Okay I'm at it again giving my own personal opinion. Here we go again, another month and I had time to look through one in my private office where I find absolute peace and quite if you know what I mean.

I thumbed through this July's issue of Sign & Digital Graphics, "Don't turn away, Channel Letter Business" by Amanda McGrory.

I'm shocked, no I'm not shocked that every vendor listed happens to be their advertisers. Do I blame capitalism and the free market? No. Everything is fair game and so is my opinion. But the problem here and to me I see many safety issues at hand along with legal issues. In this article (so called) Journalism once again greases the hand of Advertising and doing a grave disservice to our industry.

Okay, were talking about channel letters and primarily wholesale vendors and the sign companies who purchase these to pass onto their client. IMO, this article is purposely preaching to their base and written to drum up business for their advertisers, the usual touchy feely back patting.

Small parts of the article are legit, such as

"WHY A WHOLESALER"

I get, keeping up with the steady work flow and why buy unnecessary equipment or costs of keeping or buying. Sounds good but it all ends in the start of the last paragraph.

"If you're in the sign business, you're in the business to sell signs. Period,"

This is where my problem starts with this article. I look at this sentence and think about the thoughts going into the minds of shops who have no experience or legal business getting into the electric sign industry. "Wow! I can do it too!"

Our next section of this article.

"WHOLESALERS GETTING INVOLVED"

"Clearly, those new to the channel letter market will need guidance when issuing quotes......Channel letters are a form of electric signage, and this may be a type of application with which many shops are not yet familiar.........But, if you're new to this sector, don't let that intimidate you....."

Who the hell are these people? This is clearly marketing and praying upon the ignorant just to make a sale. Let's bare a little more of this informercialism...

".....however, most wholesalers can provide you with a list of local installers.......While technical know-how is needed with electrical installation, this does not mean that it's impossible without a license..........There are lot's of avenues to research, but you need to find out which ones are best for you.......Keep in mind there is risk involved when dealing with electrical signage installation because of the voltage levels used.......Thus, selecting a UL-compliant wholesaler that follows Article 600 of the National Electric Code is a absolute must"

Good god, did these people just recommend and insinuate that "Anybody" can do this kind of work and that vinyl shops or the inexperienced shops should look for ways, or look at laws as simple obstacles that one should simply research to get around to install these signs themselves or sign illegal contracts to pose as legal electrical sign contractors?

Now if this magazine had any shred of integrity or honesty as industry journalism they would at least write a small subtext or fine print at the end saying that they don't really believe this garbage themselves OR, better yet, do as most newspapers do to make believe articles are real, but that are really a advert and write PAID ADVERTISEMENT at the top of the article.

Getting serious now, what should have been discussed in this article is the fact that safety and electricity are HUGE key factors. I know we joke many times here on the site that some shops grab a poor sole in the vinyl department and throw him into the install truck and "today he's a installer". But this magazine literally encourages people who have no business in the electric sign field to become involved, all in the name of making a buck and not caring who they sell to. It's encouraged here in this article for their vendors.

What does it take to become experienced and install with electric signs in most states? In most you need a electrical license or specialty electric sign license. In most to obtain a contractors license it takes working for a electric sign shop for a minimum of 8 years. Example, can a Fast Signs shop (Buy a electrical sign from a wholesaler) who is a franchise and no contractors license, execute a contract with a salon that states they will fabricate or furnish a electric sign and install it, with the intention of hiring a licensed installer or installing it themselves without a license? A BIG ABSOLUTELY NO Subcontract is and only can be done by another contractor, only a contractor can subcontract

What can happen if you are caught posing as a contractor?

• Fines thousands of dollars
  
• Jail time
  
• The contractor who was hired by an unlicensed contractor will also be fined and lose their license.
  

So bottom line is, if you're not a contractor you cannot legally take on such work. This should be explained by Sign Business and put into the article before making believe "anyone can do it" Yes I know, there are some counties and states that don't require any kind of license, but they are so few compared to most states today.

I quickly laid out the legal speel. Now what about Sign Business's responsibility to talk about electrical safety? Do I need to go into reasons why experience is needed to install or handle an electrical sign?

Sure the sign looks good once shipped in, but will it and can it be installed per plan? Every wall is different and can take unexpected turns, what if modifications need to be made? How does the inexperienced sign shop know if that sign they have that was shipped in, is safe even though it has a listed label on it? How many Wholesale or shop manufactured signs do we run into that have no right even having a U.L. Label on it?

I'm sure I can go on and on, but the bottom line is, this article was probably written by an inexperienced industry columnist who failed to think about legal ramifications or electrical safety for their readers they are preaching and selling to. Or worse yet, was told to omit any hard talk that might detour sales from their base. It's evident that it was more important to flash their vendors in a infomercial article and get as many new shops as they can to start thinking about selling channel letters and buying from their vendors, the wholesalers......which they should not be in if they have no legal right. How many sign hack jobs do we run into on a regular basis having to re-repair?

It's articles like this that make one think it's all about the magazines way of pleasing it's base instead of taking the responsibility as a true industry journalist. Should we still call these magazines journalism, or are they taking on a new role? What happened to maintaining, protecting & guarding our good industry?

This article is no better than a industry magazine of another trade such as a roofer to become a plumber all of a sudden and decide to install water heaters or furnaces. All because they can sell you the products at a good wholesale price.

If this Magazine has any integrity at all & wants to call themselves a "industry leading magazine". Then they owe our electrical sign industry a part two for August. They need to clearly state that they made a mistake of misleading readers that "anyone can do this", AND, to be intimidated if they do not understand high voltage, codes, laws, safety standards & it is to be respected. Also that experience is needed when handling, maintaining & installing channel letters. Finally telling about the mistake of telling their readers that "readers" should "research" ways even if they are unlicensed. They should explain the legal penalties of doing so illegally.

You can make a mistake writing a article such as this one, you just can't make a mistake with electricity or structural integrity.

Okay, I'm off to Palm Springs, enjoy your weekend!

[imanut]

Why don't you copy that and send it in as an editorial to the magazine ------------ and see if it gets printed.

One of the other issues that you don't point out -------- is the companies that get involved in selling electrical signage and the prices they put on the install, or the profit margin. Those two issues alone end up killing the trade in my opinion. They justify the small profit because they didn't have to do much ------------ and all the sign shops in that area end up taking it in the shorts because now a new price structure has started.

gn -------- Palm Springs?? You get tired of the ocean view? Or did you break your ocean toys?

Edited June 20, 2009 by Gary Nutting

[Erik Sine]

Why don't you copy that and send it in as an editorial to the magazine ------------ and see if it gets printed.

One of the other issues that you don't point out -------- is the companies that get involved in selling electrical signage and the prices they put on the install, or the profit margin. Those two issues alone end up killing the trade in my opinion. They justify the small profit because they didn't have to do much ------------ and all the sign shops in that area end up taking it in the shorts because now a new price structure has started.

gn -------- Palm Springs?? You get tired of the ocean view? Or did you break your ocean toys?

I'm still here, train leaves at noon.

Way ahead of you on sending over a email on this. I was thinking maybe my thread was a little harsh to simply forward and maybe I should fluff the impact a little before sending, but I think not.

Yes there is more to add to this, just as you stated and I personally, won't be able to hit all.

I'm of the opinion that the sign vinyl/print part of the industry is so over saturated with everyone having a WF printer & the mass push of such products to become so much more inexpensive, a lot of these users are calling themselves a sign shop. In turn a lot of sign shops will be looking for ways to separate themselves from all the other shops and start to get involved in other areas that they lack experience or have no considerable know how in. So here, they will be coming, and this is why I think LED sales are growing (No offense to the LED industry). When these sign rags have their annual surveys and they always list LED sales as "growing" larger over Fluorescent or Neon light sources. I'd like to know of all those surveys taken, which shops are existing electric sign shops using & mixing LED's in with their other light sources and which are the new "wanna be" electric sign shops using LED's because they think they are "dummy proof" and can't start a fire or safety hazard because they think "12 volt system".

[MattRobin]

Could not agree more.

We are a 31 employee union shop in the north east and I am constantly losing the smaller projects to the Fast Signs or Sign A Rama's that are completely satisfied with a 5% mark up on a wholesale channel letter. Not to mention that they can get it installed on a Sunday by an unregistered sub for 1/3rd of my 8 hour standard day union crew cost. These are the guys that are hurting the industrry. Or the competitors that place a 2% mark up on an LED message center... Then build a peice of junk around it.

Thanks for getting my Monday morning going -

Matt

[Brian]

Have you noticed how many article that chic writes in each issue? They must be hard up for writers... anything she writes I do not read because it is shit!

[BengalsFan]

Okay I'm at it again giving my own personal opinion. Here we go again, another month and I had time to look through one in my private office where I find absolute peace and quite if you know what I mean.

I thumbed through this July's issue of Sign & Digital Graphics, "Don't turn away, Channel Letter Business" by Amanda McGrory.

I'm shocked, no I'm not shocked that every vendor listed happens to be their advertisers. Do I blame capitalism and the free market? No. Everything is fair game and so is my opinion. But the problem here and to me I see many safety issues at hand along with legal issues. In this article (so called) Journalism once again greases the hand of Advertising and doing a grave disservice to our industry.

Okay, were talking about channel letters and primarily wholesale vendors and the sign companies who purchase these to pass onto their client. IMO, this article is purposely preaching to their base and written to drum up business for their advertisers, the usual touchy feely back patting.

Small parts of the article are legit, such as

"WHY A WHOLESALER"

I get, keeping up with the steady work flow and why buy unnecessary equipment or costs of keeping or buying. Sounds good but it all ends in the start of the last paragraph.

"If you're in the sign business, you're in the business to sell signs. Period,"

This is where my problem starts with this article. I look at this sentence and think about the thoughts going into the minds of shops who have no experience or legal business getting into the electric sign industry. "Wow! I can do it too!"

Our next section of this article.

"WHOLESALERS GETTING INVOLVED"

"Clearly, those new to the channel letter market will need guidance when issuing quotes......Channel letters are a form of electric signage, and this may be a type of application with which many shops are not yet familiar.........But, if you're new to this sector, don't let that intimidate you....."

Who the hell are these people? This is clearly marketing and praying upon the ignorant just to make a sale. Let's bare a little more of this informercialism...

".....however, most wholesalers can provide you with a list of local installers.......While technical know-how is needed with electrical installation, this does not mean that it's impossible without a license..........There are lot's of avenues to research, but you need to find out which ones are best for you.......Keep in mind there is risk involved when dealing with electrical signage installation because of the voltage levels used.......Thus, selecting a UL-compliant wholesaler that follows Article 600 of the National Electric Code is a absolute must"

Good god, did these people just recommend and insinuate that "Anybody" can do this kind of work and that vinyl shops or the inexperienced shops should look for ways, or look at laws as simple obstacles that one should simply research to get around to install these signs themselves or sign illegal contracts to pose as legal electrical sign contractors?

Now if this magazine had any shred of integrity or honesty as industry journalism they would at least write a small subtext or fine print at the end saying that they don't really believe this garbage themselves OR, better yet, do as most newspapers do to make believe articles are real, but that are really a advert and write PAID ADVERTISEMENT at the top of the article.

Getting serious now, what should have been discussed in this article is the fact that safety and electricity are HUGE key factors. I know we joke many times here on the site that some shops grab a poor sole in the vinyl department and throw him into the install truck and "today he's a installer". But this magazine literally encourages people who have no business in the electric sign field to become involved, all in the name of making a buck and not caring who they sell to. It's encouraged here in this article for their vendors.

What does it take to become experienced and install with electric signs in most states? In most you need a electrical license or specialty electric sign license. In most to obtain a contractors license it takes working for a electric sign shop for a minimum of 8 years. Example, can a Fast Signs shop (Buy a electrical sign from a wholesaler) who is a franchise and no contractors license, execute a contract with a salon that states they will fabricate or furnish a electric sign and install it, with the intention of hiring a licensed installer or installing it themselves without a license? A BIG ABSOLUTELY NO Subcontract is and only can be done by another contractor, only a contractor can subcontract

What can happen if you are caught posing as a contractor?

• Fines thousands of dollars
  
• Jail time
  
• The contractor who was hired by an unlicensed contractor will also be fined and lose their license.
  

So bottom line is, if you're not a contractor you cannot legally take on such work. This should be explained by Sign Business and put into the article before making believe "anyone can do it" Yes I know, there are some counties and states that don't require any kind of license, but they are so few compared to most states today.

I quickly laid out the legal speel. Now what about Sign Business's responsibility to talk about electrical safety? Do I need to go into reasons why experience is needed to install or handle an electrical sign?

Sure the sign looks good once shipped in, but will it and can it be installed per plan? Every wall is different and can take unexpected turns, what if modifications need to be made? How does the inexperienced sign shop know if that sign they have that was shipped in, is safe even though it has a listed label on it? How many Wholesale or shop manufactured signs do we run into that have no right even having a U.L. Label on it?

I'm sure I can go on and on, but the bottom line is, this article was probably written by an inexperienced industry columnist who failed to think about legal ramifications or electrical safety for their readers they are preaching and selling to. Or worse yet, was told to omit any hard talk that might detour sales from their base. It's evident that it was more important to flash their vendors in a infomercial article and get as many new shops as they can to start thinking about selling channel letters and buying from their vendors, the wholesalers......which they should not be in if they have no legal right. How many sign hack jobs do we run into on a regular basis having to re-repair?

It's articles like this that make one think it's all about the magazines way of pleasing it's base instead of taking the responsibility as a true industry journalist. Should we still call these magazines journalism, or are they taking on a new role? What happened to maintaining, protecting & guarding our good industry?

This article is no better than a industry magazine of another trade such as a roofer to become a plumber all of a sudden and decide to install water heaters or furnaces. All because they can sell you the products at a good wholesale price.

If this Magazine has any integrity at all & wants to call themselves a "industry leading magazine". Then they owe our electrical sign industry a part two for August. They need to clearly state that they made a mistake of misleading readers that "anyone can do this", AND, to be intimidated if they do not understand high voltage, codes, laws, safety standards & it is to be respected. Also that experience is needed when handling, maintaining & installing channel letters. Finally telling about the mistake of telling their readers that "readers" should "research" ways even if they are unlicensed. They should explain the legal penalties of doing so illegally.

You can make a mistake writing a article such as this one, you just can't make a mistake with electricity or structural integrity.

Okay, I'm off to Palm Springs, enjoy your weekend!

HV - Where do you see an ad for Direct Sign Wholesale? You mentioned that "every vendor listed happened to be an advertiser", but I looked through this issue, and don't see an ad from DSW. Which page is that on?

[imanut]

HV - Where do you see an ad for Direct Sign Wholesale? You mentioned that "every vendor listed happened to be an advertiser", but I looked through this issue, and don't see an ad from DSW. Which page is that on?

John- howdy. A member since 07 and you're now doing a post!! For those that don't know John --- quality shop, and nice stuff !!! And a nicer person you couldn't find.

I'm not speaking for Eric -------- but excluding the ad part ---------- your thoughts on Erics comments about sign articles??? You've been in the industry quite awhile, and since you're in the wholesale section--how many calls do you get from "idiots" that don't know squat about signs trying to get something cheap, haven't a clue what to order, and then turn around and ask you how much they should mark it up for and install for???

gn

[BengalsFan]

Hi Gary - Thanks for your response. I haven't gone through the entire article yet (we've only gotten the digital edition - guess the printed one will arrive in today's mail.) But in Sign and Digital Graphics defense, I wanted to make sure it is clear that DSW is not currently an advertiser in the magazine.

Let me take a look at the rest, and I'll post some additional thoughts.

John- howdy. A member since 07 and you're now doing a post!! For those that don't know John --- quality shop, and nice stuff !!! And a nicer person you couldn't find.

I'm not speaking for Eric -------- but excluding the ad part ---------- your thoughts on Erics comments about sign articles??? You've been in the industry quite awhile, and since you're in the wholesale section--how many calls do you get from "idiots" that don't know squat about signs trying to get something cheap, haven't a clue what to order, and then turn around and ask you how much they should mark it up for and install for???

gn

[Erik Sine]

HV - Where do you see an ad for Direct Sign Wholesale? You mentioned that "every vendor listed happened to be an advertiser", but I looked through this issue, and don't see an ad from DSW. Which page is that on?

Hi John and welcome to the forum. Unfortunately I'm on vacation at the moment and only have two issues of Sign & Digital (June & July). You are correct I do not see you as having an ad in either of those two issues, but, just last week I was given the buyers guide and this is how I cross referenced without looking at all past magazine issues. Does it cost a fee to be in this Buyer's Guide? If not, my mistake. Has DSW ever paid fees for any kind of exposure by Signs & DG? No ads in the past. If not, would this article have motivated DSW possibly to think about future advertising?

If DSW has never paid any fees, then my mistake and you have sincerest apology.

It's not really my business who sells to who (wholesale) and not something I would waste time with, I'm all for a free market. I'm more concerned about the Industry Magazines & Leaderships role, who are supposed to be helping by looking out for the best interests of our grand sign industry & have them at heart.

That aside, what do you think on my comments on what I would call of Sign & Digital Graphics irresponsible article?

On a additional comment to my original thread I just slightly glanced at June's Issue of Amanda McGrory's "Breaking In To Digital" I can almost say this article almost looks like a mirror reflection of the channel letter article by just the opening sentence alone.

"Digital Signage can sound intimidating, especially to a sign shop that has never taken on this type of application ......"

[BengalsFan]

Hey HV,

No problem. Kind of funny - when I first read your post, I thought you had actually seen a DSW ad in the publication. That is why I asked for the page number - I couldn't find it in the digital edition. If in fact an unauthorized ad was running, I would need to know the specifics ASAP.

We did receive a listing in the recent Sign & Digital Graphics Buyer's guide, but that was unpaid.

Anyway, with that said, we have advertised with Sign & Digital Graphics (formerly Sign Business) in the past, but not for quite a while. I think our last small ad ran about a year ago.

Is it possible they quote us in their article to increase the chance of DSW running a print ad? I doubt it. They've quoted us in other articles since we cancelled our previous small ad, and it didn't work then.

Also, given the staff reductions in the trade publications during the economic downturn, I hesitate to criticize their work too harshly. I think they are doing the best they can with the very slim resources they have. Many are doing the work of 2 or 3 people.

Let me get my hands on the print edition, read the article word for word, and then I'll get back to you with some specific comments.

IN THE MEANTIME, GET OUT THERE AND ENJOY YOUR VACATION!

Hi John and welcome to the forum. Unfortunately I'm on vacation at the moment and only have two issues of Sign & Digital (June & July). You are correct I do not see you as having an ad in either of those two issues, but, just last week I was given the buyers guide and this is how I cross referenced without looking at all past magazine issues. Does it cost a fee to be in this Buyer's Guide? If not, my mistake. Has DSW ever paid fees for any kind of exposure by Signs & DG? No ads in the past. If not, would this article have motivated DSW possibly to think about future advertising?

If DSW has never paid any fees, then my mistake and you have sincerest apology.

It's not really my business who sells to who (wholesale) and not something I would waste time with, I'm all for a free market. I'm more concerned about the Industry Magazines & Leaderships role, who are supposed to be helping by looking out for the best interests of our grand sign industry & have them at heart.

That aside, what do you think on my comments on what I would call of Sign & Digital Graphics irresponsible article?

On a additional comment to my original thread I just slightly glanced at June's Issue of Amanda McGrory's "Breaking In To Digital" I can almost say this article almost looks like a mirror reflection of the channel letter article by just the opening sentence alone.

"Digital Signage can sound intimidating, especially to a sign shop that has never taken on this type of application ......"

[Erik Sine]

My vacation wasn't long enough!

That is good to know that their listings for their buyers guide is free, I assumed it was a listing of all their advertisers and business's who want to pay to be listed for their audience like most phone books.

I may have come off like I hate the whole magazine, not the case as they may have more good articles than not. But, they do have some deceiving articles as well, just about all of the different trade rags do. What is hard to find is these days is, honest journalism/investigative journalism, that can go for just about for anything not just the sign industry. A lot of Articles with our industry seem to have a sales agenda.

Like most who read these and all who have at least an ounce of, or shred of real information this becomes visible. I'm just get tired of the good 'ol boy network that has existed and run in our industry for such a log time. They are the ones who are/can kill it.

Now, from all the past threads on a related topic I'm surprised to see such a low response. Everyone must be too busy, which is good. Just hope everyone isn't under selling themselves, lol

Welcome to the Forum Matt!

[TecnoluxMan]

I agree>>>>>>>they do need to make a two part to their article. By the way, is this the same magazine that had a independent issue for strictly electric signs that is no longer??

[Erik Sine]

I agree>>>>>>>they do need to make a two part to their article. By the way, is this the same magazine that had a independent issue for strictly electric signs that is no longer??

I don't know why I get more responses in PM and email and none here, well yes I do.

We can go back to threads about more subcontractors getting bent over by national sign companies ready to fold, that seems to get the public outcry and response one would imagine. Let's focus about the short term problems and not the long term ones. Let's worry more about the one bending you over at the moment, rather than the one organizing the line behind you. Get in line yo!

It's no wonder why this site exists.

[TecnoluxMan]

I don't know why I get more responses in PM and email and none here, well yes I do.

We can go back to threads about more subcontractors getting bent over by national sign companies ready to fold, that seems to get the public outcry and response one would imagine. Let's focus about the short term problems and not the long term ones. Let's worry more about the one bending you over at the moment, rather than the one organizing the line behind you. Get in line yo!

It's no wonder why this site exists.

That's funny

[Erik Sine]

I've had some pictures taken by installers and other sign shops here on this site from wholesale sign manufacturers bearing UL labels, they have been pics posted on this site for some time. I have some as well. I also have some people who have contacted me recently with some pics as well, hopefully they will post those soon too here.

I'm not going to post these pics or display who they were manufactured by, I'm not posting to blast anyone. I'm simply going to post these to prove my point that you have to be an experienced shop to handle & install these types of electric signs. Just because you buy from another shop doesn't mean that sign conforms to electrical standards or bears a UL label it is safe. It's up to you to know, and take over the responsibility.

These Pics were taking a while back from Joemomma, this sign was built by a wholesale company.

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

These are from my personal pic collection. If some of you remember these from a thread I did some time ago about a bid I lost to a shop who buys wholesale and marks it up and installs themselves without a contractors license. The short, this client called me back to fix his sign, this was the result of their install, this is for a franchise "Nutrition store" needless to say I did nothing for him, he didn't want to pay & have his sign properly configured and his sign is still partially out as I just noticed the other day

Pic 1

Pic 2

[Erik Sine]

So their August issue is out and no rebuttal article or editor notes.

Now it's talk of awnings, what's next for the novice to tackle? Dentistry? "Let's ignore it, maybe it'll go away".

I found this article of particular interest and contradictory to last months Amanda article. it's by David Williamson and his article is titled "National Conversation About Signage, Talking Through Three C's: Clutter, Capitalism and Community"

"Who Speaks For The Industry?"

...."Who speaks for the sign sign industry?" The question is as appropriate now as ever. The controversial proposed sign code in Los Angeles provide a good example. There, the California Sign Association- on behalf of it's members- spoke against draconian aspects of the proposal. Fair enough, yet the CSA membership is filled with quality sign companies that understand every detail of designing, installing and maintaining effective on premise signs.

Would the CSA want to represent all ign companies in Los Angeles or California? I rather doubt it. Below- radar companies made and installed the thousands of illegal signs causing part of the Los Angeles ruckus. In California and many other states, sign associations legitimately are wary of unlicensed manufacturing & installation.

........For starters let's quit pretending that we should have any deep interests in representing such companies. As a group they do far more damage to our interests as an industry than any theoretical benefits accruing to a a trade group wanting to claim them as their numbers for other purposes.....

Hey great, someone over there sees the light. Don't these columnists read each others articles? Amanda/NBM needs to take notes from David here and assist these sign associations by not whoring out, err.....promoting out our trade to those who have no business being in it in the first place. Yes, selling to anyone and anything is great for a supplier or wholesaler, but is bad for the industry which should be held in highest of regards when coming from a trade (*cough) magazine.

Let's stop promoting the idea that anyone from anywhere can just jump into our industry and "Just do it"

Let's start fixing problems at home first. I don't know, I might be taking a shot in the dark here.

[Brian]

So their August issue is out and no rebuttal article or editor notes.

Now it's talk of awnings, what's next for the novice to tackle? Dentistry? "Let's ignore it, maybe it'll go away".

I found this article of particular interest and contradictory to last months Amanda article. it's by David Williamson and his article is titled "National Conversation About Signage, Talking Through Three C's: Clutter, Capitalism and Community"

"Who Speaks For The Industry?"

...."Who speaks for the sign sign industry?" The question is as appropriate now as ever. The controversial proposed sign code in Los Angeles provide a good example. There, the California Sign Association- on behalf of it's members- spoke against draconian aspects of the proposal. Fair enough, yet the CSA membership is filled with quality sign companies that understand every detail of designing, installing and maintaining effective on premise signs.

Would the CSA want to represent all ign companies in Los Angeles or California? I rather doubt it. Below- radar companies made and installed the thousands of illegal signs causing part of the Los Angeles ruckus. In California and many other states, sign associations legitimately are wary of unlicensed manufacturing & installation.

........For starters let's quit pretending that we should have any deep interests in representing such companies. As a group they do far more damage to our interests as an industry than any theoretical benefits accruing to a a trade group wanting to claim them as their numbers for other purposes.....

Hey great, someone over there sees the light. Don't these columnists read each others articles? Amanda/NBM needs to take notes from David here and assist these sign associations by not whoring out, err.....promoting out our trade to those who have no business being in it in the first place. Yes, selling to anyone and anything is great for a supplier or wholesaler, but is bad for the industry which should be held in highest of regards when coming from a trade (*cough) magazine.

Let's stop promoting the idea that anyone from anywhere can just jump into our industry and "Just do it"

Let's start fixing problems at home first. I don't know, I might be taking a shot in the dark here.

Again your spot on with your comments! as I have said before anythin she writes is just shit filler for the rag!

[signman12]

Okay I'm at it again giving my own personal opinion. Here we go again, another month and I had time to look through one in my private office where I find absolute peace and quite if you know what I mean.

I thumbed through this July's issue of Sign & Digital Graphics, "Don't turn away, Channel Letter Business" by Amanda McGrory.

I'm shocked, no I'm not shocked that every vendor listed happens to be their advertisers. Do I blame capitalism and the free market? No. Everything is fair game and so is my opinion. But the problem here and to me I see many safety issues at hand along with legal issues. In this article (so called) Journalism once again greases the hand of Advertising and doing a grave disservice to our industry.

Okay, were talking about channel letters and primarily wholesale vendors and the sign companies who purchase these to pass onto their client. IMO, this article is purposely preaching to their base and written to drum up business for their advertisers, the usual touchy feely back patting.

Small parts of the article are legit, such as

"WHY A WHOLESALER"

I get, keeping up with the steady work flow and why buy unnecessary equipment or costs of keeping or buying. Sounds good but it all ends in the start of the last paragraph.

"If you're in the sign business, you're in the business to sell signs. Period,"

This is where my problem starts with this article. I look at this sentence and think about the thoughts going into the minds of shops who have no experience or legal business getting into the electric sign industry. "Wow! I can do it too!"

Our next section of this article.

"WHOLESALERS GETTING INVOLVED"

"Clearly, those new to the channel letter market will need guidance when issuing quotes......Channel letters are a form of electric signage, and this may be a type of application with which many shops are not yet familiar.........But, if you're new to this sector, don't let that intimidate you....."

Who the hell are these people? This is clearly marketing and praying upon the ignorant just to make a sale. Let's bare a little more of this informercialism...

".....however, most wholesalers can provide you with a list of local installers.......While technical know-how is needed with electrical installation, this does not mean that it's impossible without a license..........There are lot's of avenues to research, but you need to find out which ones are best for you.......Keep in mind there is risk involved when dealing with electrical signage installation because of the voltage levels used.......Thus, selecting a UL-compliant wholesaler that follows Article 600 of the National Electric Code is a absolute must"

Good god, did these people just recommend and insinuate that "Anybody" can do this kind of work and that vinyl shops or the inexperienced shops should look for ways, or look at laws as simple obstacles that one should simply research to get around to install these signs themselves or sign illegal contracts to pose as legal electrical sign contractors?

Now if this magazine had any shred of integrity or honesty as industry journalism they would at least write a small subtext or fine print at the end saying that they don't really believe this garbage themselves OR, better yet, do as most newspapers do to make believe articles are real, but that are really a advert and write PAID ADVERTISEMENT at the top of the article.

Getting serious now, what should have been discussed in this article is the fact that safety and electricity are HUGE key factors. I know we joke many times here on the site that some shops grab a poor sole in the vinyl department and throw him into the install truck and "today he's a installer". But this magazine literally encourages people who have no business in the electric sign field to become involved, all in the name of making a buck and not caring who they sell to. It's encouraged here in this article for their vendors.

What does it take to become experienced and install with electric signs in most states? In most you need a electrical license or specialty electric sign license. In most to obtain a contractors license it takes working for a electric sign shop for a minimum of 8 years. Example, can a Fast Signs shop (Buy a electrical sign from a wholesaler) who is a franchise and no contractors license, execute a contract with a salon that states they will fabricate or furnish a electric sign and install it, with the intention of hiring a licensed installer or installing it themselves without a license? A BIG ABSOLUTELY NO Subcontract is and only can be done by another contractor, only a contractor can subcontract

What can happen if you are caught posing as a contractor?

• Fines thousands of dollars
  
• Jail time
  
• The contractor who was hired by an unlicensed contractor will also be fined and lose their license.
  

So bottom line is, if you're not a contractor you cannot legally take on such work. This should be explained by Sign Business and put into the article before making believe "anyone can do it" Yes I know, there are some counties and states that don't require any kind of license, but they are so few compared to most states today.

I quickly laid out the legal speel. Now what about Sign Business's responsibility to talk about electrical safety? Do I need to go into reasons why experience is needed to install or handle an electrical sign?

Sure the sign looks good once shipped in, but will it and can it be installed per plan? Every wall is different and can take unexpected turns, what if modifications need to be made? How does the inexperienced sign shop know if that sign they have that was shipped in, is safe even though it has a listed label on it? How many Wholesale or shop manufactured signs do we run into that have no right even having a U.L. Label on it?

I'm sure I can go on and on, but the bottom line is, this article was probably written by an inexperienced industry columnist who failed to think about legal ramifications or electrical safety for their readers they are preaching and selling to. Or worse yet, was told to omit any hard talk that might detour sales from their base. It's evident that it was more important to flash their vendors in a infomercial article and get as many new shops as they can to start thinking about selling channel letters and buying from their vendors, the wholesalers......which they should not be in if they have no legal right. How many sign hack jobs do we run into on a regular basis having to re-repair?

It's articles like this that make one think it's all about the magazines way of pleasing it's base instead of taking the responsibility as a true industry journalist. Should we still call these magazines journalism, or are they taking on a new role? What happened to maintaining, protecting & guarding our good industry?

This article is no better than a industry magazine of another trade such as a roofer to become a plumber all of a sudden and decide to install water heaters or furnaces. All because they can sell you the products at a good wholesale price.

If this Magazine has any integrity at all & wants to call themselves a "industry leading magazine". Then they owe our electrical sign industry a part two for August. They need to clearly state that they made a mistake of misleading readers that "anyone can do this", AND, to be intimidated if they do not understand high voltage, codes, laws, safety standards & it is to be respected. Also that experience is needed when handling, maintaining & installing channel letters. Finally telling about the mistake of telling their readers that "readers" should "research" ways even if they are unlicensed. They should explain the legal penalties of doing so illegally.

You can make a mistake writing a article such as this one, you just can't make a mistake with electricity or structural integrity.

Okay, I'm off to Palm Springs, enjoy your weekend!

AMEN brother. I was in tizzy when finshed that article, almost fell of the bowl! I spent years working to earn the right jsut to apply for a license, and now their preaching to every yahoo to go and sell electric signs without an ounce of know how. I'm not saying that they can't ever go from vinyl shop to electric shop because I did, but not by posing as a contractor.

Contracting is simply defined as negotiating, and accepting work where a license is required. This should be done by licensed companies. If they want to turn over a lead for a commission, no problem, but don't encourage unlicensedcontracting, here in Florida it's a felony punishable upto 5 years in prison and a $100,000 if violate article 486.17 of the state code.

[signman12]

I've had some pictures taken by installers and other sign shops here on this site from wholesale sign manufacturers bearing UL labels, they have been pics posted on this site for some time. I have some as well. I also have some people who have contacted me recently with some pics as well, hopefully they will post those soon too here.

I'm not going to post these pics or display who they were manufactured by, I'm not posting to blast anyone. I'm simply going to post these to prove my point that you have to be an experienced shop to handle & install these types of electric signs. Just because you buy from another shop doesn't mean that sign conforms to electrical standards or bears a UL label it is safe. It's up to you to know, and take over the responsibility.

These Pics were taking a while back from Joemomma, this sign was built by a wholesale company.

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

These are from my personal pic collection. If some of you remember these from a thread I did some time ago about a bid I lost to a shop who buys wholesale and marks it up and installs themselves without a contractors license. The short, this client called me back to fix his sign, this was the result of their install, this is for a franchise "Nutrition store" needless to say I did nothing for him, he didn't want to pay & have his sign properly configured and his sign is still partially out as I just noticed the other day

Pic 1

Pic 2

Looks like a typical South Florida Install!! Boots intead of fed bushings, bear GTO in a wood crawl space, simply amazing the lengths people will go to save a buck.

This is partly why my quote is "WOW, everyday, just WOW!"

Josh

[neonsignfire]

Okay I'm at it again giving my own personal opinion. Here we go again, another month and I had time to look through one in my private office where I find absolute peace and quite if you know what I mean.

I thumbed through this July's issue of Sign & Digital Graphics, "Don't turn away, Channel Letter Business" by Amanda McGrory.

I'm shocked, no I'm not shocked that every vendor listed happens to be their advertisers. Do I blame capitalism and the free market? No. Everything is fair game and so is my opinion. But the problem here and to me I see many safety issues at hand along with legal issues. In this article (so called) Journalism once again greases the hand of Advertising and doing a grave disservice to our industry.

Okay, were talking about channel letters and primarily wholesale vendors and the sign companies who purchase these to pass onto their client. IMO, this article is purposely preaching to their base and written to drum up business for their advertisers, the usual touchy feely back patting.

Small parts of the article are legit, such as

"WHY A WHOLESALER"

I get, keeping up with the steady work flow and why buy unnecessary equipment or costs of keeping or buying. Sounds good but it all ends in the start of the last paragraph.

"If you're in the sign business, you're in the business to sell signs. Period,"

This is where my problem starts with this article. I look at this sentence and think about the thoughts going into the minds of shops who have no experience or legal business getting into the electric sign industry. "Wow! I can do it too!"

Our next section of this article.

"WHOLESALERS GETTING INVOLVED"

"Clearly, those new to the channel letter market will need guidance when issuing quotes......Channel letters are a form of electric signage, and this may be a type of application with which many shops are not yet familiar.........But, if you're new to this sector, don't let that intimidate you....."

Who the hell are these people? This is clearly marketing and praying upon the ignorant just to make a sale. Let's bare a little more of this informercialism...

".....however, most wholesalers can provide you with a list of local installers.......While technical know-how is needed with electrical installation, this does not mean that it's impossible without a license..........There are lot's of avenues to research, but you need to find out which ones are best for you.......Keep in mind there is risk involved when dealing with electrical signage installation because of the voltage levels used.......Thus, selecting a UL-compliant wholesaler that follows Article 600 of the National Electric Code is a absolute must"

Good god, did these people just recommend and insinuate that "Anybody" can do this kind of work and that vinyl shops or the inexperienced shops should look for ways, or look at laws as simple obstacles that one should simply research to get around to install these signs themselves or sign illegal contracts to pose as legal electrical sign contractors?

Now if this magazine had any shred of integrity or honesty as industry journalism they would at least write a small subtext or fine print at the end saying that they don't really believe this garbage themselves OR, better yet, do as most newspapers do to make believe articles are real, but that are really a advert and write PAID ADVERTISEMENT at the top of the article.

Getting serious now, what should have been discussed in this article is the fact that safety and electricity are HUGE key factors. I know we joke many times here on the site that some shops grab a poor sole in the vinyl department and throw him into the install truck and "today he's a installer". But this magazine literally encourages people who have no business in the electric sign field to become involved, all in the name of making a buck and not caring who they sell to. It's encouraged here in this article for their vendors.

What does it take to become experienced and install with electric signs in most states? In most you need a electrical license or specialty electric sign license. In most to obtain a contractors license it takes working for a electric sign shop for a minimum of 8 years. Example, can a Fast Signs shop (Buy a electrical sign from a wholesaler) who is a franchise and no contractors license, execute a contract with a salon that states they will fabricate or furnish a electric sign and install it, with the intention of hiring a licensed installer or installing it themselves without a license? A BIG ABSOLUTELY NO Subcontract is and only can be done by another contractor, only a contractor can subcontract

What can happen if you are caught posing as a contractor?

• Fines thousands of dollars
  
• Jail time
  
• The contractor who was hired by an unlicensed contractor will also be fined and lose their license.
  

So bottom line is, if you're not a contractor you cannot legally take on such work. This should be explained by Sign Business and put into the article before making believe "anyone can do it" Yes I know, there are some counties and states that don't require any kind of license, but they are so few compared to most states today.

I quickly laid out the legal speel. Now what about Sign Business's responsibility to talk about electrical safety? Do I need to go into reasons why experience is needed to install or handle an electrical sign?

Sure the sign looks good once shipped in, but will it and can it be installed per plan? Every wall is different and can take unexpected turns, what if modifications need to be made? How does the inexperienced sign shop know if that sign they have that was shipped in, is safe even though it has a listed label on it? How many Wholesale or shop manufactured signs do we run into that have no right even having a U.L. Label on it?

I'm sure I can go on and on, but the bottom line is, this article was probably written by an inexperienced industry columnist who failed to think about legal ramifications or electrical safety for their readers they are preaching and selling to. Or worse yet, was told to omit any hard talk that might detour sales from their base. It's evident that it was more important to flash their vendors in a infomercial article and get as many new shops as they can to start thinking about selling channel letters and buying from their vendors, the wholesalers......which they should not be in if they have no legal right. How many sign hack jobs do we run into on a regular basis having to re-repair?

It's articles like this that make one think it's all about the magazines way of pleasing it's base instead of taking the responsibility as a true industry journalist. Should we still call these magazines journalism, or are they taking on a new role? What happened to maintaining, protecting & guarding our good industry?

This article is no better than a industry magazine of another trade such as a roofer to become a plumber all of a sudden and decide to install water heaters or furnaces. All because they can sell you the products at a good wholesale price.

If this Magazine has any integrity at all & wants to call themselves a "industry leading magazine". Then they owe our electrical sign industry a part two for August. They need to clearly state that they made a mistake of misleading readers that "anyone can do this", AND, to be intimidated if they do not understand high voltage, codes, laws, safety standards & it is to be respected. Also that experience is needed when handling, maintaining & installing channel letters. Finally telling about the mistake of telling their readers that "readers" should "research" ways even if they are unlicensed. They should explain the legal penalties of doing so illegally.

You can make a mistake writing a article such as this one, you just can't make a mistake with electricity or structural integrity.

Okay, I'm off to Palm Springs, enjoy your weekend!

[neonsignfire]

Nice to see someone is watching. Its no wonder there are so many lawyers now feasting on sign companies after a fire. These type of incidents along with incorrect and misleading articles harm the professionalism of the industry. They should employ someone who understands watts and amperes instead of nouns and verbs.

[JR Neon]

Finally got my greasy mitts on this issue......scary stuff to spread around and promote if you ask me. We write a lot of the major shopping center sign programs around town.... from time to time a landlord will call us to do a private inspection on a sign they approved from a vendor and we will see even these wholesale bought signs installed completely wrong......last month I saw bare GTO with splice boxes :emot-LOL: .....the GTO was arcing out on some wooden studs that had nails in it which were I guess connected to that wire meshing used between the plywood and stucco......the people hey get to install this stuff......un-F'nk-believable!

Good job magazine gal Amanda beat writer of the year!

[Brian]

Did you see the new ed of Sign and Digital Graphics?

Amanda McGrory wrote 5 of the articles!!!!

This mag must be really hard up for writers. I would like to know what her claim to fame is.

Edited August 30, 2009 by High Voltage
From previous topic http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3343

[TelfordDorr]

It's usually a symptom that they can't get anybody else to write anything (for free...)

[Erik Sine]

Well it almost appears that someone else wrote the electric sign articles for Fraggle and they pasted her photo to the articles. I know this because there was no "You TOO can do this.....don't be intimidated! .....We are in business to sell signs, PERIOD". There was really just an accident at the Sign & Digital Graphics facility, the final print wasn't carefully looked at by the editor to notice the profile of the actual writer was duplicated over and over by Fraggle (The "go to" columnist of promotion)

The "Fraggle"

The positive side to all this is the fact that Fraggle didn't do any industry injustice in this months go around. It came pretty close in the scoreboard article and I'm sure there was drooling going on, but luckily the editor came by, proof read, then proceeded to chop block the Fraggle at the knees just in time. The puppet was pulled and all is safe this month, we can again breath a sigh of relief. *sigh*

It's a good thing that the Signs & Digital Graphic folks spend some time here catching up on info from the folks who actually spend time "in the field" and not from some academic sitting high and above up in a tower looking down on us.