LED retrofit article in sign builder illustrated

[Brian]

Hey guys just read the article in sign builder on retrofitting LED border lights on a shopping mall with sloan LEDS. They quote energy savings but did not install near as many runs as the old neon. I would love to hear comments from Sean, Gary and the neon guys as well as Manuel and Marko from the LED side. Let's try to come up with some real cost fiqs

[imanut]

Hey guys just read the article in sign builder on retrofitting LED border lights on a shopping mall with sloan LEDS. They quote energy savings but did not install near as many runs as the old neon. I would love to hear comments from Sean, Gary and the neon guys as well as Manuel and Marko from the LED side. Let's try to come up with some real cost fiqs

Don't have the article to read, sorry.

[Erik Sine]

Maybe he's talking about this one?

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/sbi0510/#/32

[Brian]

nope it is titled "give it up for the red stripes" on page 43

[Erik Sine]

I ran the numbers on one article on that theater where all the red as replaced. The numbers seemed off by about a grand in energy, so they probably used those numbers that are inflated on LED manufacturer calculators. But I also noticed they went from double stroke neon to single stroke red led's, which they could have done with neon too.

With the cost of red led's being as low as it is, client can truly make the money back in a couple of years.

But, how long does it last compared to red neon that does not degrade in light over time? Which LED product lasts? Hence the Neon LED comparison here, The Red Light District

[YYZ]

Well - if it was 568 feet as they say, then at 2.8W per foot it works out to about 1590W Voltage drop reduces that a touch to say, 1550W. Then the power supplies are about 85% efficient at worst. Fully loaded with these sorts of runs they could be closer to 90% - so let's go with 87%.

1550W / 0.87 = 1782W true consumption, which works just fine on a single 20A breaker that they might have been describing in the article.

Clear Red on an electronic tranny uses about 3.75W per foot, so the 750 feet in a best case electronic scenario would be 2813W or so, which should include the 0.90PF. On magnetic trannies it would be close to double power consumption - but let's go with 6W just to use a modest number, even though it could be higher. 750 feet x 6 = 4500W.

Assuming 12 hours per day usage....

Sloan LED system @ 1782W = 7805 kWh, which at $0.10 = $780.00 per year in energy costs

Neon on electronics @ 2813W = 12321 kWh, which at $0.10 = $1232.00 per year in energy costs

Neon on magnetics @ 4500W = 19710 kWh, which at $0.10 = $1971.00 per year in energy costs

At 24 hours per day usage (which let's keep in mind is often the case in colder areas for neon):

Sloan LED system @ 1437W = 6294 kWh, which at $0.10 = $1560.00 per year in energy costs

Neon on electronics @ 2813W = 12321 kWh, which at $0.10 = $2464.00 per year in energy costs

Neon on magnetics @ 4500W = 19710 kWh, which at $0.10 = $3942.00 per year in energy costs

So...

It all depends on what they had before and what they used as their starting point for neon. In the case of magnetics that stay on 24/7, the savings could be $2382 per year, more if the power consumption is more than 6W per foot (which we know can be the case).

Did I do the neon calculations right?

[Erik Sine]

I take that back on the SST's not being applicable with this double row neon application

Alright I show fifteen 15/30kv's operating at 3,405 watts on magnetic trannies for 15mm clear red, estimate about half of that for SST'so (1,702)

12 hours a day, 365 days $.10 Kwh =

Magnetics = $1,491.39 annually

SST's = $709.97 Annually

Side note, these figures come from fully loaded trannies, so the actual number if probably shave off 16%

[fishing nut]

I think we have the rag here and will take a look at it later. The calculations, are they for HPF or NPF trannies that you did. Personally I would have done it in 18mm and being it is neon filled it would not have to be on in cold weather 24/7. The sloan strips cost sooooo much more than a 40$ 8ft red unit, whether that has anything to do with the ROI, I dont know?

[manuellynch]

I think border tubing should be done in neon, don't like LED border tubing

Nothing more to comment

[YYZ]

I think border tubing should be done in neon, don't like LED border tubing

I can't say I disagree. I do think there's a place for LED border products, but this is one of those applications where neon does really well in many instances.

Cold weather can be an issue, or certain colors. Running on solar would be a lot easier with LED, which is something gas stations should be looking into more and more, considering the entire canopy is generally unused and could house plenty of arrays - not to mention benefiting from the (stupid) cap and trade regulations that will be coming into effect.

Speaking of gas stations, anyone ever wonder why you can't use a cel phone at a gas station, while there's 12000V neon running around the canopy?

Edited May 11, 2010 by YYZ

[Brian]

I take that back on the SST's not being applicable with this double row neon application

Alright I show fifteen 15/30kv's operating at 3,405 watts on magnetic trannies for 15mm clear red, estimate about half of that for SST'so (1,702)

12 hours a day, 365 days $.10 Kwh =

Magnetics = $1,491.39 annually

SST's = $709.97 Annually

Side note, these figures come from fully loaded trannies, so the actual number if probably shave off 16%

ok captain there is a lot of difference in yours and markos numbers.... who is more accurate?

[Brian]

Well - if it was 568 feet as they say, then at 2.8W per foot it works out to about 1590W Voltage drop reduces that a touch to say, 1550W. Then the power supplies are about 85% efficient at worst. Fully loaded with these sorts of runs they could be closer to 90% - so let's go with 87%.

1550W / 0.87 = 1782W true consumption, which works just fine on a single 20A breaker that they might have been describing in the article.

Clear Red on an electronic tranny uses about 3.75W per foot, so the 750 feet in a best case electronic scenario would be 2813W or so, which should include the 0.90PF. On magnetic trannies it would be close to double power consumption - but let's go with 6W just to use a modest number, even though it could be higher. 750 feet x 6 = 4500W.

Assuming 12 hours per day usage....

Sloan LED system @ 1782W = 7805 kWh, which at $0.10 = $780.00 per year in energy costs

Neon on electronics @ 2813W = 12321 kWh, which at $0.10 = $1232.00 per year in energy costs

Neon on magnetics @ 4500W = 19710 kWh, which at $0.10 = $1971.00 per year in energy costs

At 24 hours per day usage (which let's keep in mind is often the case in colder areas for neon):

Sloan LED system @ 1437W = 6294 kWh, which at $0.10 = $1560.00 per year in energy costs

Neon on electronics @ 2813W = 12321 kWh, which at $0.10 = $2464.00 per year in energy costs

Neon on magnetics @ 4500W = 19710 kWh, which at $0.10 = $3942.00 per year in energy costs

So...

It all depends on what they had before and what they used as their starting point for neon. In the case of magnetics that stay on 24/7, the savings could be $2382 per year, more if the power consumption is more than 6W per foot (which we know can be the case).

Did I do the neon calculations right?

marko you figured 568 feet on led and 750 feet on neon why?

[Erik Sine]

Not sure what Marko was calculating. I estimated 750' on 15mm glass.

On a France Chart it says 3.6 watts/foot for Ne on a 15/30Kv, magnetic tranny. 750' = 2,700 watts.

Maybe the a Tranny guy will chime in. The footage never said if that accounted for electrodes

I haven't even read the article yet, btw lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fishing nut]

Just read the article, A little confusing though. Removed 750 ft (3 rows) of neon and installed 568 feet (2 rows) of LED by way of 46 ten foot units????? I like the quote about the single strand copper wire as being an inferior wire. Yes electrodes today have braided nickle wire. The wire he sees is dumet wire. THere was no stranded wires BACK then. That tells me that the tubes are minimum of say 12 to 15 years old. They did say some did not work but was it tube failure or transformer failure. . B By calling them inferior is not an accurate description. I'm not getting into the power debate because it is not an apple to apple comparison.. I would love to see this application in a year and then in another year. Neon would cost apx 18-22 $ a foot installed. That includes all material and labor and last another 20 years. When the original job was done I do not believe there was HPF transformers and maybe they just threw in all 15K bombers like was typical, that may be the reason for the amount of circuits needed. 2 rows of neon mid point grounded figure, 30ft per transformer (2 rows) would require 10 transformers (roughly including electrode footage) using 15mm. If you go with 18mm you can add 6 ft to every run of double row or 12 feet to the tranny load. reducing the amount of transformers used by one or two units. either way it could have been done on 2 circuits.

Well gotta go for now.

[YYZ]

marko you figured 568 feet on led and 750 feet on neon why?

That's what was in the article. They were replacing 750 feet of neon with 568 feet of Sloan LED. That's what their energy calculation they pitched to the customer, and article would have to be based on.

As for power consumption, I got the info right from EGL. Electronics = 3.5W/ft.

http://www.egl-neon.com/documents/neonefficiency.pdf

The magnetic I was going on memory, but 6W is on the low side.