OSHA passed crane operator cert. rule!

[Brian]

Yep the brain child OSHA has passed the crane operator certification law. All operators of cranes with a max cap. of 2000 lbs and over must be certified by an accredited co. There is a 4 year phase in period that starts in November of this year. We as a people are regulating ourselves into extinction.

This will cost the sign industry millions. I am really getting tired of everyday hearing about new regs. and costs to stay in business. Maybe welfare is the way to go... F'it let someone else work and pay the bills I'll just take my son fishing.

Edited August 13, 2010 by chubbygumby

[Erik Sine]

Of course! More programs for everything, more to come from every avenue I'm sure. Government wants to put their hand out for more money in every way possible.

I'm still waiting on a "environment/energy efficiency" certification code/program or regulation when it comes to signs so we can throw that into mix too. Something else we have to pay for annually that gets passed onto our clients which bumps the price of doing business and selling signs.

I'll stop here before I get the point where I can't help myself.

[Signworksinc]

hate to say it

TOLD YOU SO...

This is where in Canada, we got it earlier, all the illegal cranes (no manufacturer names mentioned) and backyard crane builders creations get ripped out of your hands and sent to scrap, new or not. With your crane license you have to operate a fully certified crane that passes every year.

Careful which shit boxes you buy, something happens on the job your screwed. You and your crane will have to be certified, do not operate illegal equipment because you'll lose your crane license also.

BTW, the lawyer was worth every dollar.

[PhillipM]

I wonder how many cranes will be "de-rated" to 1999 lbs capacity.

[Brian]

hate to say it

TOLD YOU SO...

This is where in Canada, we got it earlier, all the illegal cranes (no manufacturer names mentioned) and backyard crane builders creations get ripped out of your hands and sent to scrap, new or not. With your crane license you have to operate a fully certified crane that passes every year.

Careful which shit boxes you buy, something happens on the job your screwed. You and your crane will have to be certified, do not operate illegal equipment because you'll lose your crane license also.

BTW, the lawyer was worth every dollar.

The cranes do not have to be certified just the operator

[fishing nut]

Is this just for cranes or all arial eq.???

I think it is a good idea that should have been done years ago, does the scope of it limit it to the sign industry or all industries IE Electricians, Tree guys ect.

Will this put more responsability on the operator for using faulty equipment when something happens?

[fishing nut]

This will effect rental companies who rent the portable lifts to anyone who has a hitch on thier truck

[Brian]

This will effect rental companies who rent the portable lifts to anyone who has a hitch on thier truck

Just cranes over 2000 lbs lifting cap. Not bucket trucks or lifts

[fishing nut]

It should be for all ariel lifts. You can put a jib on the end of any bucket, not that it is rite or proper but I have seen it a lot.

[Brian]

It should be for all ariel lifts. You can put a jib on the end of any bucket, not that it is rite or proper but I have seen it a lot.

That is easy to say but paying for all the extra certifications adds up... we cannot just absorb it. Hell at some time you have to stop the blood letting.

[Hammer4670]

Isn't the certification just for specific states right now?

[jerseysign]

Got to look at the positives, the more regulations the harder it is for the "competition" to stay afloat.

[Erik Sine]

I'm of quite the opposite opinion, the bigger the regulation the bigger the government. Everything gets passed on down to the customer. How much can we keep raising costs in a down economy? I think the more regulation legitimate companies try to stay the course with the more the customer will go to cheaper cost companies, after all, they don't play by the rules which leaves the game players in the crapper.

How much regulation is too much? I don't know about most, but UL has already gotten out of control, I think we can do without UL and leave the electrical safety to viable field inspectors, or better trained ones.

What's next, certified installers?

[jerseysign]

I'm of quite the opposite opinion, the bigger the regulation the bigger the government. Everything gets passed on down to the customer. How much can we keep raising costs in a down economy? I think the more regulation legitimate companies try to stay the course with the more the customer will go to cheaper cost companies, after all, they don't play by the rules which leaves the game players in the crapper.

How much regulation is too much? I don't know about most, but UL has already gotten out of control, I think we can do without UL and leave the electrical safety to viable field inspectors, or better trained ones.

What's next, certified installers?

I AGREE with you COMPLETELY - and yes, UL has got to be the most F'd thing we have to deal with (right next to zoning)

Howver, I cannot alow myself to become upset with these things, there is power in positvie thinking.

It wasnt too long ago when "sign guys" had a brush in one hand and a bottle of spirits in the other, and that wasnt to clean the brush!

As an industry we have done alot of the harm ourselves...

Part of the reason you have non-ligitimate sign "companies" everywhere is because you can buy a 15" plotter for $1500 and volia - you are a sign company.

Town inspectors are lazy and do drive by inspections, hacks print their own BS UL labels and yes install off of ladders stacked ontop of box trucks.

Guy down the street has an old cable crane with high school installers...Certified installers ALMOST sounds like a good idea.

You just have to sell yourself better and remind your customer they need a quality reliable company (who BTW is insured, accredited and liscensed) - can they afford to take a short cut to save a few bucks if the ladder slips off the roof of the box truck???

I can compete all day long with well put together established quality companies, i can ussualy overcome the price thing with the fly by nights, it just takes more time and effort.

I really think some of these things will help us in the long run.

Think crane companies - not too many of them in my area that are not fully liscenced, inspected and insured - most bill out a $250 an hour / min 4 hours - i can work with that.

Edited February 12, 2011 by jerseysign

[Brian]

Isn't the certification just for specific states right now?

Nope 2014 all states!

[Brian]

Think crane companies - not too many of them in my area that are not fully liscenced, inspected and insured - most bill out a $250 an hour / min 4 hours - i can work with that.

You get 250 per hour and a 4 hour min for a sign crane?

[jerseysign]

Yes, that the going rate for 2,000lbs and over, min charge is $1,000.

Spotter / flag man rule will increase the reate for everyone - customer pays for it.

Dont knowif its against the rules here, but we also get $250 per hour for a 2 man crew, van , pickup, bucket, crane, gocart...$250 per hour point to point.

Our cost per man is slightly below that...it is what it is, got to cover costs or why get out of bed.

Sure, we lose some jobs to price but you know the deal.

[Brian]

Yes, that the going rate for 2,000lbs and over, min charge is $1,000.

Spotter / flag man rule will increase the reate for everyone - customer pays for it.

Dont knowif its against the rules here, but we also get $250 per hour for a 2 man crew, van , pickup, bucket, crane, gocart...$250 per hour point to point.

Our cost per man is slightly below that...it is what it is, got to cover costs or why get out of bed.

Sure, we lose some jobs to price but you know the deal.

Wow wish we could get that around here. Is anyone else getting $1000.00 min for a sign crane?

$250.00 per hour for 2 man bucket truck we would not get a single national service job.

Edited February 14, 2011 by chubbygumby

[jerseysign]

Heres the screwed up part - we get those rates for non-sign related lifts (roof truss, HVAC units, etc...)

We ussually do not charge that to another sign company...because we cant...thats my whole point - our industry still needs to "mature".

The way i see it, increased regulations of sorts might just help the industry move more in that direction, those that wont or cant comply will disappear (hopefully)

[imanut]

That is why I was so surprised by your post. Just to clarify, I am a licensed contractor.

I have not kept up on the crane requirements and do not know when they will be forced down our throats. I hope to be diving full time by then........

I believe it is 2014. Some that I know are having their cranes de-rated by the manufacturer to under 2000 lbs. so they don't have to screw with OSHA. Most guys don't lift anything that heavy anyway.

Boy, I would think that would end up being a very slippery legal slope - go back to an Elliott mfg and say "hey, change this thing so I can't pick up more than 2,000 lbs so I don't have to get certified that I'm qualified to operate it? Wow, on a good day, good operators f it up and lay one over, or swing into a line etc. Being certified to operate a crane might seem like an inconvenience but I would think it would help train "self taught" people that "think" everything is kosher. I know, certification is the cure-all - but we've all seen some weird crane operators, especially with the smaller "sign" cranes that would benefit from training. Just wait till you go to a jobsite and the construction foreman informs you that the new requirements also dictate a qualified signal person, and a qualified rigger to hook up the load - OR - you're off the job !

gn

[Brian]

That is why I was so surprised by your post. Just to clarify, I am a licensed contractor.

I have not kept up on the crane requirements and do not know when they will be forced down our throats. I hope to be diving full time by then........

I believe it is 2014. Some that I know are having their cranes de-rated by the manufacturer to under 2000 lbs. so they don't have to screw with OSHA. Most guys don't lift anything that heavy anyway.

Boy, I would think that would end up being a very slippery legal slope - go back to an Elliott mfg and say "hey, change this thing so I can't pick up more than 2,000 lbs so I don't have to get certified that I'm qualified to operate it? Wow, on a good day, good operators f it up and lay one over, or swing into a line etc. Being certified to operate a crane might seem like an inconvenience but I would think it would help train "self taught" people that "think" everything is kosher. I know, certification is the cure-all - but we've all seen some weird crane operators, especially with the smaller "sign" cranes that would benefit from training. Just wait till you go to a jobsite and the construction foreman informs you that the new requirements also dictate a qualified signal person, and a qualified rigger to hook up the load - OR - you're off the job !

gn

The new requirements don't require a qualified rigger. Nothing slippery about it. The problem is the "training" is mostly on cranes and situations that sign people never run into! When is the last time you needed to operate a barge crane?

[imanut]

The new requirements don't require a qualified rigger. Nothing slippery about it. The problem is the "training" is mostly on cranes and situations that sign people never run into! When is the last time you needed to operate a barge crane?

Brian - sometimes I think you don't know of what you speak, other times I know you don't know of what you speak. Here's a couple attachments, one from ISA, and a couple OSHA papers on riggers and signal persons - that ARE relevant to the new OSHA rules. If you still doubt, contact your holder of your liability insurance - it's probably a major company that does have people that are fully aware of the new requirements. Here's a little assist on the subject.

isa crane.pdf

osha rigger.pdf

osha signal.pdf

[Brian]

Brian - sometimes I think you don't know of what you speak, other times I know you don't know of what you speak. Here's a couple attachments, one from ISA, and a couple OSHA papers on riggers and signal persons - that ARE relevant to the new OSHA rules. If you still doubt, contact your holder of your liability insurance - it's probably a major company that does have people that are fully aware of the new requirements. Here's a little assist on the subject.

Whatever smartass did you read what you posted? Riggers do NOT have to be certified by a third party. The employer (crane company) is allowed to determine if a person is qualified for rigging. So you WILL NOT be fired from a job for not having a certified rigger!

[Brian]

Brian - sometimes I think you don't know of what you speak, other times I know you don't know of what you speak. Here's a couple attachments, one from ISA, and a couple OSHA papers on riggers and signal persons - that ARE relevant to the new OSHA rules. If you still doubt, contact your holder of your liability insurance - it's probably a major company that does have people that are fully aware of the new requirements. Here's a little assist on the subject.

Whatever smartass did you read what you posted? Riggers do NOT have to be certified by a third party. The employer (crane company) is allowed to determine if a person is qualified for rigging. So you WILL NOT be fired from a job for not having a certified rigger!

I don't know about other places but around here crane companies don't show up with riggers unless you specifically ask them to. They expect you to have the personnel on hand for that. Now when it comes to huge cranes lifting hundreds of tons that may change but that is really not relevant to the sign biz. Most sign company lifts are signs, trusses, HVAC units, etc. The problem most in the sign industry have with the OSHA training is alot of the information we have to learn is not relevant to our jobs. More educated crane operators is a good thing but having to pay for training on cranes we do not use is what the bitch is about.

That being said I know nothing of what I speak and to get the real facts you should contact Gary LOL!

Edited February 17, 2011 by chubbygumby

[imanut]

Brian - sometimes I think you don't know of what you speak, other times I know you don't know of what you speak. Here's a couple attachments, one from ISA, and a couple OSHA papers on riggers and signal persons - that ARE relevant to the new OSHA rules. If you still doubt, contact your holder of your liability insurance - it's probably a major company that does have people that are fully aware of the new requirements. Here's a little assist on the subject.

Whatever smartass did you read what you posted? Riggers do NOT have to be certified by a third party. The employer (crane company) is allowed to determine if a person is qualified for rigging. So you WILL NOT be fired from a job for not having a certified rigger!

Hey bud - my ass really isn't that smart. I did not say they had to be certified - I said they had to be qualified. And yes - I've read the crap quite a few times. It does not say that the crane company is allowed to determine if a person is qualified - it says the "employers qualified evaluator" is allowee to asses and determine. But, whatever. My point, is that your insurance company can help in this, and probably already has a third party that can qualify you or your people - and with our company, there is no charge, complete with a certificate if it is needed as to the qualifications.

You're so much fun so early in the mornings - how does your wife deal with you?

gn