Sign of the times channel letter article.

[UFB Fabrication]

Just opened and skimmed the latest SOT article about channel letters. 1st off if anyone looks at the mag you can seen its loaded with channel letter bending machines ads that have really increased ad space this month. Hmmmm. Well once again the said that ground breaking technology has come to the channel letter market.  Yes it is if this article was written 15 or 20 years ago. Nothing new has been come up with for years and most anyone who makes channel letters seriously bought a bender years ago.  While automated bending is great and with a clincher or stapler is better than doing it by hand its really only 20% of building a letter.  Still have to slap some LED's in it which are of course the modern miracle of the sign world.  Add a bit of trim cap and viola you made yourself a set of letters.  Never mind the other equipment needed, permits or UL .    Its pretty plain to me that this is typical of SOT of telling a "story" that includes/benefits a advertiser, shame on them.  Looking more like fakes news

[paul321]

Its another Miracle cure for the sign industry.  Buy one and you are now a full complete electrical letter manufacturer with the push of a button.

This is on page 3 of the Franchise Fantasy.  " You too can be a fully Qualified Electrical Sign Manufacturer " 

[ChannelBender1]

Respectfully UFB, it appears you're not well-informed regarding the latest advancements made regarding channel letter machines.

Before assuming nothing has changed with channel letter machines give me a call to find out actually how much has changed.  

 

Our Super ChannelBender XP is much faster, more accurate, wastes much less material (only 1/4") per letter than any of our competitors, we introduced and patented a Trimless channel letter coil called LetterForm in 2016.  In fact we were presented with the ISA Innovation Award at Sign Expo 2016 for this new material. Our machine automatically punches 1/8" pilot holes for screws and rivets, our machine automatically punches 1/4" drain holes, our machine automatically removes the flange on one side of the seam overlap, our software can read the location of holes from the router dxf file used to cut the back panel of a letter and our machine will place a corresponding hole in the flange so rivets no longer require any pre-drilling and lastly our machine will punch rivet holes on both sides of the seam overlap we can bend serifs as small as 3/16" in reverse channel letters.  Are those not profound improvements to a channel letter machine?  More than 300 sign companies across the country have replaced their gold and green antique channel letter machines in the last 4 years alone.  I can't imagine they'd be doing that if we hadn't built a better mouse trap. I beg to differ with your opinion. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by ChannelBender1

[UFB Fabrication]

28 minutes ago, ChannelBender1 said:

Respectfully UFB, it appears you're not well-informed regarding the latest advancements made regarding channel letter machines.

Before assuming nothing has changed with channel letter machines give me a call to find out actually how much has changed.  

 

Our Super ChannelBender XP is much faster, more accurate, wastes much less material (only 1/4") per letter than any of our competitors, we introduced and patented a Trimless channel letter coil called LetterForm in 2016.  In fact we were presented with the ISA Innovation Award at Sign Expo 2016 for this new material. Our machine automatically punches 1/8" pilot holes for screws and rivets, our machine automatically punches 1/4" drain holes, our machine automatically removes the flange on one side of the seam overlap, our software can read the location of holes from the router dxf file used to cut the back panel of a letter and our machine will place a corresponding hole in the flange so rivets no longer require any pre-drilling and lastly our machine will punch rivet holes on both sides of the seam overlap we can bend serifs as small as 3/16" in reverse channel letters.  Are those not profound improvements to a channel letter machine?  More than 300 sign companies across the country have replaced their gold and green antique channel letter machines in the last 4 years alone.  I can't imagine they'd be doing that if we hadn't built a better mouse trap. I beg to differ with your opinion. 

 

 

Yes I know your machine is better and you must have forgotten our discussions but the next couple machines will likely be Red, a different color than the ones we currently have. 

You missed my point though.  Even if you machine can have us bending and attaching backs 50% better, the majority of work building letters to a completed sign is not just the metal letter.  Buying one of these machines does not automatically make a sign company a channel letter wizbang.   You will need clincher/stapler, routers, welders, paint booths along with UL or similar listing service and more.  The most difficult will be the skill, knowledge and talent.   The SOT article similar to others  they have written in the past is a bit of a puff piece showcasing bending machines (which are great inventions/machines BTW) but did not give all the info needed. It was a great way for them to get advertising revenue so I must give SOT props for that.  Not very helpful for a company looking into getting into the channel letter game.  But thats ok they will learn the hard way and end buy buying out letters from wholesalers in the end if they remain in business.

 

[ChannelBender1]

I certainly won't disagree with you there. Building letters takes a whole lot more skill and talent than simply buying one, or even several machines.  For example, our closest competitor introduced that new, cheaply made  machine for about $40k. It has very limited capabilities.  Heck, it doesnt even bend .063. Equipment like that essentially targets a low budget, uneducated segment of the market. When I say uneducated I'm simply referring to a lack of fabrication knowledge and experience. That type of equipment is intended for people who really aren't sure they're committed to doing fabrication in the long term. It's for those who want to dip a toe in the water and dabble. I suspect there will be a huge secondary market for those cheap, low-end machines once the original purchasers figure out exactly how much effort and experience is required to build a QUALITY, COMPLETE channel letter sign. 

[alltex]

Oh well, we're still in the 20th century here.  Amazingly, we're still able to build channel letters, without a channel machine.   Probably 50% of our channel letters are welded, and use neon for illumination.  If I was chasing business, and needed to build a low cost product.  In order to compete with with the nationals.  I suppose I'd buy one.  

[Don Dingwall]

There is no justification for calling a company, or it’s owner “uneducated”.  Just because a sign company cannot afford expensive equipment for their shop does not make them any less professional or qualifies them as “uneducated”. It simply means they are waiting for the right equipment to come along that meets their business and budgetary needs.

When we pioneered/invented automated channel letter bending 20 years ago, we naturally targeted larger sign companies. Now some, who have used our machines for 20 years, are augmenting their production with specialty machines including machines built outside the of the U.S. However, in most cases, they are still running their Accu-Bend machine(s) because Accu-Bend channel letter benders are built to last.

Perhaps James at SDS should show some respect for those who don’t have the business volume yet, are just entering the channel letter business, are frustrated with the time it takes to bend letters by hand or are simply tired of the cost of wholesale channel letters.  Referring to them as “uneducated” is rude and is not a good marketing approach.

Steve, you purchased your machine before we offered our two latest models.  Your machine can be field upgraded for a small charge to take advantage of these new capabilities. The small arm option allows you to make tighter bends and, instead of swapping out hardware on the Red machine, you can change the flange width between a ½” to ¼” with a simple click of a mouse.  The scriber option cuts a slight groove in the coil to make sharper angles. You can drill a lot of weep holes with the $30,000 you’ll save by upgrading your current machine and buying a new green machine versus buying ONE of the foreign-made machines.

[ChannelBender1]

Thanks for the feedback Don. Employee of Computerized Cutters who just registered and posted at the insistance of Carl Ondrececk who sent me repeated harrassing emails 2 days ago because of my post here calling me an "asshole" Etc. Etc. Etc.  In response to which I had to notify our law firm and send Carl a cease and desist otherwise I'd have  Carl charged with cyberstalking which by the way is a Federal crime. 

 

Just to clarify my use of uneducated I provided a specific context by saying "When I say uneducated I'm simply referring to a lack of fabrication knowledge and experience" Therefore I wasnt calling them stupid as you so implied Don

Edited July 13, 2018 by ChannelBender1

[Don Dingwall]

My post was in direct response to your disparaging remarks against both our product and our mutual customer base. I don’t need coaxing to defend my company, my products or my customers.

While it is sometimes understandable that an irate customer would bash a vendor in a public forum – it is totally inexcusable for one vendor to bash another vendor in the same industry.  It’s even more unseemly that a vendor would denigrate their potential customer base as you clearly did.

No amount of qualification minimizes or excuses labeling your prospective customer base "uneducated”.

Public forums are meant to share experiences, educate and learn – not for bashing competitors or customers.

As far as I am concerned, this interaction is over. I will continue to defend my company, products and customers when necessary. I do not disparage your products during discussions with customers and I will never denigrate my customers.

[UFB Fabrication]

OKAY  Both manufacturers are making assumptions about our experience, size and sales.  James your Lack of knowledge about the experience and skill of our company  is showing your lack of experience, knowledge and understanding of the custom sign business or to use your words "uneducated''. These are machines that may be utilized in may 5% in what needed in a custom sign shop and less than 20% of a simple channel letter.  Folks like us were building letters by before either SDS or CC had a PO box working in Moms garage.  Get over yourselves.

 

It also should not make one bit of difference when responding or posting here but......frankly, simple channel letters that are spit out by the automated machines don't require much talent and the signs look like it. Its a portion of what we do and like to help our customers fill a need. 

 

But that's OK cause we do millions of dollars a year in business selling them.  We concentrate on signs that other shops are not capable of building using knock down kits and cookie cutter channel letters. We have almost 40 skilled craftsmen that build high end custom signs since 1999. We have modern state of the art equipment with over a 1/2 million in new equipment just last year.  

 

That said, here is a pic of our Accubends output for not quite a day by the way.  I have to say its held up very well as we have only had 1 in house service call in the years we have owned it. Pic 2 shows a letter that neither machine can bend and more inline with what we do.   

[UFB Fabrication]

Todays Batch so far.   

[ChannelBender1]

Hello Steve,

 

There has been a serious miscommunication here.  I made no comments that were directed toward you, UFB Fab, its size or skill and I apologize if you got that impression.  I'm unclear how you made that assumption based on my comment.  

[Rocco]

 

 

On 6/29/2018 at 11:04 AM, paul321 said:

Its another Miracle cure for the sign industry.  Buy one and you are now a full complete electrical letter manufacturer with the push of a button.

This is on page 3 of the Franchise Fantasy.  " You too can be a fully Qualified Electrical Sign Manufacturer " 

 

I'm going to avoid the comments above but throw in my two cents (which may be all my post is worth but..).   

 

Way back in the dark ages when signs were still hand painted, a company called Gerber Scientific came out with the first good vinyl plotter.   And yes, there may have been others, but this was the first one that (at least in my area) saw large sales.   The local sign writers bemoaned the fact that now any "monkey with two fingers" (a phrase I heard more than once) could now lay out and make signs.   Other phrases like "its ruining the industry", "taking away jobs", etc. flew about.   I wonder if the first mass produced brushes got the same kind of comments?

 

We used to make wholesale channel letters (all by hand) and after I saw the Gerber 4-B at other shops,  I tricked (long story) my father into buying one.    it cost $10K (in 1982 dollars) when that was a tidy sum.   it came with a whopping seven fonts.   It saved us a lot of time, allowed us to stop hand cutting/reverse spraying faces, making letter patterns, etc.   I was just learning to hand letter at the time, but that was left on the wayside.  I still wish I had fully learned to hand letter but i digress.

 

Anyway, channel letter benders are just another tool.   In the hands of an experienced shop they can really be a money maker.  Digital printers are another similar item.  If you know how to use them (and market that service) you can make a lot of dough.  In the 21st century channel letters, digital prints, aluminum extrusions, etc. are all commodities.  You can buy an assemble-it / install-it yourself set of channel letters on-line from at least one source.  I wonder when Amazon or Walmart will start carrying channel letters, cabinet signs, etc.

 

Now, anyone with deep enough pockets can gain entry to the sign business, be it with electric signs, vinyl graphics, 3d carved signs, etc. by buying the right equipment AND hiring the right people.   TBH, isn't that the new business model in these times.   If you have enough $, you can get into most any business.   Put together a business plan, get a loan, assemble a team, rent appropriate space, buy "stuff" and run with it.  It will never be as easy as the franchise salespeople would make you believe, but people will try and some will succeed.  

 

Now I'm putting on my helmet, body armor and hunkering down in my foxhole and try to avoid the shrapnel.

[UFB Fabrication]

I remember a couple sign shops in town would loan/trade each other the font cards for the Gerber 4b.  I still say all the time that you can tell a graphic artist that drew or painted signs vs one that had only done stuff on the computer.  

[Rocco]

OMG, gerber font cards.   That brings me back.  I actually still have a 4B that runs though it's not aligned properly and lives under a table.  A couple of years ago, a belt broke (only the 2nd or 3rd thing in a zillion years) and I just couldn't line it up right.   If I had a swivel blade for it I could still cut vinyl with the beastie.  I've moved on to a larger plotter so that belt breaking was a happy accident.  It forced me to move into the 21st century.   Though if you ask my kids I'm still stuck in the 1800's.

 

I admit to never being a great artist though I always start with pencil/paper.  I'll probably never win any design prizes but can at least do a rough draft with a customer.