Post for/from member coffeebiz

[Erik Sine]

[Mod]

Hi Everyone,

We just opened an espresso/coffee shop on May 23rd. SOmetime in early March, a man who works for a local building supply mega chain approached my business partner and said he had overheard a conversation in his store about us opening a new business, and he had been in the sign business 35+ years and could make us a channel lettering neon sign set up and also a shadow box. He had done a couple of the stores' signs in the shopping area we are in and they look fine, so we made a contract with him.

He said it would take 2-3 weeks to complete the job - after 4 weeks we still didn't have sigange so I called him several times before he finally dropped by. He never answered my calls, not returned them, not does he have an email. He just dropped in when he felt like it. He finally put up the channel lettering (i'll attach a photo of it). It's been about 3 months, and he still has not connected the channel letting to electricity. I have called him a dozen times with no return call. When he did drop in a couple of weeks ago to install the shadow box, he said he didn't need us there to connect the channel lettering, that it could be donw from the outside. To date he has not connected the signage (we ordered double-stroke) and refused to return my by now desperate messages; we are open without a sign, which makes us dark at night to traffic.

Today, I had our contractor go look at the sign to see if he could connect it to electricity (he is a licensed electrician) and he told us there are no bulbs, that the lettering is a facade which can't be lighted as it is. He removed the acryrlic and it's empty behind the lettering.

We are stunned. Doesn't the neon tubes have to be bent and placed in before the colored acyrylic covering is attached and put on a track and attached to a building? We are asking here HOPING someone can tell us how the channel lettering and neon lights are made before we talk to him and he tells us he is going to add the light tubing when he connects the electricty. He has not bothered to tell us there is no way to light the lettering now, he just keeps saying he'll come down and connect it to electricity and we'll be ready to go, then dosn't even show up to do it.

We paid 1/2 down and told him we'd pay the balance upon completion. Can anyone give me a remedial cliff notes of how channel lettering is made, if the tubing is placed in when the lettering is made and if we have possibly been duped?

We already know the guy has few scruples; he knows we are already open and unable to be seen at night and doesn't seem to care if we draw a crowd or not. It's bizarre; any commets would be appreciated!

Would anyone put up a sign and say they are coming down to light it several times, without a double-stroke neon tubings behind the letters?

Here is the picture of the channel lettering on track.

[Erik Sine]

Coffee,

There may be a a couple ways to help remedy your situation.

You mentioned you had a contractor, so I'm guessing in your state you have to have a contractors lic to do work? Same will go for a guy installing electric signs.

If so, your in better shape than if it's not a requirement, whether he is a contractor or not in a required state.

1) check to see if he is licensed through the state.

My first step would be to call him that your going to report him to the BB, State Contractors Board and State Consumer Affairs Dept for "abandonment".

If he does have a lic you can collect from his bond (The state will help you out in this matter), chances are that sign he gave you is not legal anyways. From the looks of it off the bat it is not.

If he comes to finish the job also tell him you will not pay him until the local building inspector signs off on the sign permit and you get a copy of it. The sign also needs to be U.L. you should see a white/silver UL label on the left or right side of the raceway.

If he does not wish to finish this job in completion he's a fool because he will go to jail for posing as a contractor if he is not one. His Lic number should be on your contract that you signed.

If you can please mention his name and contact info here or send us his contract, this will help others like you that might research his business name or name on the web.

Back to some of your questions. Yes there should already be neon in it.

This is how your sign should look

(Inside of the raceway)

(Inside the letters)

[joemomma]

Though I don't know the specifics of your contract with this "man who works for a local building supply mega chain", and we all know that hind-sight is 20/20, it sounds to me like you bought a pig in a poke, probably at a low price. Do you know for sure that he did the couple signs in the same shopping area, or did you take his word for it? Did you get references? Did you call the BBB? Is he in the Yellow Pages? Did you get competitive bids? In other words, as should be done always when buying something "not off the shelf" from somebody you don't know whose main business apparently is in another line of work, did you do your homework? It doesn't sound to me like you did, and I can garner up little sympathy for someone in your circumstance. However, like Sign Guy said, there are remedies. In a court of law you may be able to get your money back, but will it be worth the expense? In the meantime, you need an illuminated sign. My suggestion is that you contact bona fide sign companies and see if one of them can fix your sign for you so it will comply with codes and light up. It will more than likely cost quite a bit more than your original quote.

[coffeebiz]

Hello,

Thank you very much for your fast rsponses. I will provide more detailed answers, I am just checking in, I have to get down to the store.

Yes, we did verify he did the sign for the business next to us, yet that was 7 years ago, and their only complaint is that the vinyl he put in their window (store hours, etc.) is peeling up, but the sign has had no problems.

Westcoast, thanks for posting the pictures, that really helps. And yes, Joemomma, hindsight is 20/20. We did ask for 2 bids which were about 1K higher than his, and he stated it is because he doesn't have the overhead they have and it's a second job for him so he isn't solely dependent on signage for a living. He manages the buliding dept. at Home Depot.

If he returns my calls today, I'd like to ask him why there is no neon tubing behind the letters. He may say he was going to add them when he connects the electricity. I would like to know if can can realistically put the neon light tubing in after the fact it is already on the raceway and mounted, and if he says he had intended to, if it's a tall story? In other words, if I am armed with knowledge as to how the assembly is done, then I can call his bluff.

Thanks so much guys, this is unreal and I apprciate your kind help.

[Erik Sine]

Yes the neon can be added later. But why I can't tell you, unless he has a slow neon bender who is behind in his work.

[B.O.P.]

Yes the neon can be added later. But why I can't tell you, unless he has a slow neon bender who is behind in his work.

Though it may be true that the neon can be added later, it would most likely be a LOT harder to do after the letters are up. It's been a very long time since I assembled a set of channel letters, but unless all the holes are drilled for housings/pass throughs and all the tube supports are installed, etc., it would not be a fun job. This is not the way it is normally done. As for the neon shop he uses being way behind, I think 3 months is long enough! I think 'coffee' has been had. Perhaps the guys manager at Home Depot should be made aware of the situation and the fact that this guy is out there doing lousy work and telling everyone he works at HD? At the very least I would tell the HD manager that if this is the type of people HD hires that you will make everyone aware of it that you can. It certainly can't hurt. And who knows, it may help the guy finish the job or give you your deposit back. The latter would be preferable IMO, even if you have to start over with a new set of letters from a reputable sign company.

[joemomma]

....If he returns my calls today, I'd like to ask him why there is no neon tubing behind the letters. He may say he was going to add them when he connects the electricity. I would like to know if can can realistically put the neon light tubing in after the fact it is already on the raceway and mounted, and if he says he had intended to, if it's a tall story? In other words, if I am armed with knowledge as to how the assembly is done, then I can call his bluff.

I'd still like to know if a permit was pulled for this project. If so, then an electrical inspection will follow installation to satisfy permit requirements. If inspected, it must comply with the National Electric Code, which mandates that electric signs be listed (such as UL). There will be a label on the outside of the sign to that effect. I doubt seriously that your HD guy is a UL shop, so in order to be legal, the sign must be manufactured and delivered to him by a UL shop, and the sign must be complete; that is, ready to connect to the house electric. My suspicion is that this sign is not listed. I also suspect that where there is no neon, there are no neon transformers in the raceway. But I'm a suspicious guy when it comes to Fly by Nighters.

Worst case scenario if a permit was pulled - the sign will be cited for many code violations and you should find a UL shop in your area that will fix it. They may have to remove the sign and take it back to the shop to fix it (maybe not). You may wish that you had taken that second bid in the first place.

[coffeebiz]

I am going to investigate the permits, etc., but it being a holiday, I can't do much until tomorrow. He did say the sign was being made in a nearby city, so he farmed it out. He did make opening soon, and now open banners for us, and the vinyl lettering on the windows look good. I am wondering if he didn't pay the neon bender due to financial troubles and the bender just told him to take the race way and letters and be gone. All is speculation. He has done several signs in the area, including competition of ours in a nearby town, and they all look good. Looks like this guy has fallen on hard times and apathy has set in. It's hard to care much about that when we have a new business under a week old, and no way to light our sign.

I have printed out these posts and am very grateful for all of your help. We now won't be confused by arcane speech if he tries to cover his handling of this with "The neon tubing isn't added until afterwards" or something we wouldn't have known one way or the other.

Would each letter require its own transformer, or is it possible he intended to use a transformer already in place from the prior business. From what joemomma says, the transformers would be in the raceway?

The proposal was for a 3x6 shadow box with vinyl lettering (we got a 3x3 and it looks awful and it's not lighted, either) 1 set of 18" channel letters on raceway (raceway to match the color of the building it doesn't) - supply all permits - 3 week delivery and install - all repairs for one year with double stroke neon.

I will look for a local shop to see what it will take to get this sign lighted, and when I find out about the permits or any other questions posed, I will let you know.

Guys, I really appreciate your help. It's made all the difference in how we will approach this.

[imanut]

Cofebiz----hope you learned alot from this. However, When my cohorts speak of UL-----------I did not see a town of reference for your sign, and it might not, by virtue of the AHJ, meaning the local sign inspectors, i.e. the local town electrical inspector, might NOT require a UL sticker. So, that alone can't be an absolute.

Putting the neon in afterwards------------like my cohorts said--------not the best, definitely not the easiest way. Your letters, being mounted on a raceway, the transformer WILL be inside the raceway. What you won't know---------and based on this guy's fly by night attitude--------whether the tranny is the correct size.

Looking at the pic, and you stating twice that the letters will be double stroke-------------sure looks like a tight fit for two rows of neon.

If you have access to, and are comfortable climbing a ladder. Set the ladder up, pull the plex off a letter and look, inside. You'll see if the holes, the housing, wires etc are in the letter and raceway. If you have access to the top of the raceway, lift the cover off, see if there is a tranny. If there is a tranny, look for a factory label on the tranny. Look at the tranny and see if its new-----------oir looks old. Either way, look at the plate, see if you see a 15,000 volt secondary voltage, a 12,000 volt secondary voltage, etc. Might be a 9,000, 75,000----------take note of what it is.

When the guy, IF the guy, finishes the sign----------do NOT pay the balance until the sign is lit, till you have the time to ope the sign up, and see if the neon is truly two rows of neon, or only one, etc, etc. Not that you'll really know what you're looking at-------------but you'll know what you DON'T have in the sign!!!!

With the guy working at HOME depot------------hold that over his head to finish the job. I doubt seriously that Home depot would like one of their managers screwing the public like that-------------might ery well lose his job over it.

Hey, keep us posted on what's happening on the sign. Make better business decisions in the future---------or you might very well be back at your old job!!!!

Now------------------where's our coffee????

gn

[YYZ]

Yeah - it really depends on where you are located - since regulations will vary with each jurisdiction. Where are you located?

Gary offers some good advice regarding opening up the letters and having a closer look or yourself - but to offer an alternative opinion - you don't have to use neon to light up these letters. LEDs are a reasonable alternative, especially if you're in an area where a licensed fabricator/installer is not required. Depending on your situation, you could finish it yourself and save some $$ to compensate for your headaches.

The cost of these channel letters, paint, faces, raceway and installation are worth more than the 50% you paid. This guy only makes a profit if you let him complete the job and pay him what he's owed. You could either get a different neon shop to special make the tubes to fit your letters and to come install them (you cannot do neon yourself), or you can go with LED and either do it yourself (if allowed by law) or hire a licensed shop to come do it for you (they would typically also sell you the product).

What you do with the first guy, legally speaking, is up to you. You could sue him for breach of contract, dereliction, etc... even take him to court and force him to pay the remainder of your costs to complete the sign. Most of this is more trouble than it's worth, though. It stands to reason that if you were willing to spend the remaining 50% to have the work completed the first time around - just have a notarized letter (cost you $25) stating that you consider his refusal to return calls or fulfill his contractual obligations a sign that he is not interested in doing so and you relieve him of his remaining obligations. State your claim of ownership over the goods that your non-refundable deposit paid for, and threaten to have him charged with trespassing and theft if he tries to remove the sign. Then take whatever other money you budgeted to spend and either pay someone who appreciates your business, or as stated above (and if legally allowed), finish the lighting yourself with LEDs.

Edited May 29, 2007 by YYZ

[imanut]

I question the wisdom of giving, or accepting legal advice, finanical advice, etc-----------from those that are not professional lawyers, tax people, etc. However, I also question their wisdom when they are professionals!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The giving of, and the acceptance of, advice for which you are not a professional could be a major mistake.

gn

[Erik Sine]

I don't think you can trust this man to finish this job properly without expecting more problems down the road. Just make sure the job is inspected before final payment.

It might be a pain in the ass to do, but I would tell him at this point

You're Fired!

And hire someone to finish the job properly

[YYZ]

I question the wisdom of giving, or accepting legal advice, finanical advice, etc-----------from those that are not professional lawyers, tax people, etc. However, I also question their wisdom when they are professionals!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The giving of, and the acceptance of, advice for which you are not a professional could be a major mistake.

gn

Clearly any advice being given is in the general sense to give the OP directions in which to get proper advice. If they don't know which questions to ask, what things are worth, industry shop talk, etc - then any advice they get from a lawyer or tax person will be limited in scope. A lawyer won't know a thing about neon or LEDs or whether they can be put in after the cans are up. These things add dimension to any resolution the OP wishes to seek, and clearly anyone who has given advice in this thread has qualified their comments with "maybe, possibly, allowable by local code" etc...

It remains up to the OP to weigh our industry specific comments with those found locally through a legal adviser, city permit clerk, or what have you.